What 3 reloading factors most affect accuracy...?

Not what he said

Frankenmauser, I think you mis-read noylj's post (#17).

Your post (#20) said "consistency at the reloading bench will be outweighed by uncontrollable random factors". I did not see that expressed or implied in noylj's post. Rather, he stated that once a range of charge weights that produce accuracy is found, any charge weight that is within that range is good. For example, if a charge weight of 25.3 to 24.7 grains all group well, there is no point in pouring a lot of effort into staying between 24.9 and 25.0 grains.

Respectfully submitting that you may want to read the post from the author's point of view.

Lost Sheep
 
he stated that once a range of charge weights that produce accuracy is found, any charge weight that is within that range is good. For example, if a charge weight of 25.3 to 24.7 grains all group well, there is no point in pouring a lot of effort into staying between 24.9 and 25.0 grains.

I was pleasantly surprised to click on this thread and find that dropping an "exact charge" was not one of the 3 reloading factors that affect accuracy the most. I will not pretend to be an expert, but speaking from my own experiences and from reading and discussing the experiences of others I am of the belief that a lot of reloaders are spending a lot more of their time/financial resources on this aspect of reloading than is necessary. Keeping your charges consistently within whatever charge range is most accurate for your gun/load is essential. Dropping the same charge time after time is not, in my opinion.

My inexpensive digital scale measures to .02grains time after time, day after day as confirmed by my beam scale and check weights. When I trickle a new charge for rifle reloading, sure I hold the charge to .02grains. It is as easy to trickle one charge as it is another. More often than not though, when I switch to production mode and use volumetric powder dispenser to throw the charge the results on paper are just as good as my "exact" trickled loads, even though the charge may vary by +/-.1 to .3grains.
 
My buddy ran a 400rd Design of Experiments through his f-class rifle. Brass prep was statistically insignificant--anything involving a cutter--was no better or no worse than the other brass that just came straight out of the Winchester bag. He was plotting individual shots; 400 data points (rather than measuring group diameters and having far less data to work with). Even if it was subtly better, it would have stood out; but it didn't.



Some stuff matters; some very little. I've found that a good bullet and powder/charge/primer combination matter. Seating depth sometimes matters. Everything else I've found to be subtle at best.
 
Another example of excellent accuracy from ammo with big variables in components happened in 1991. Sierra Bullets sent a few thousand prototype's of their then new 30 caliber 155-gr. Palma bullets to some Palma team members to develop loads for them. They were to be used in the 1992 World Palma Matches in New Mexico. We had to use new, unprepped .308 Win. cases weighing about 170 grains but with mouths uniformed in diameter, Fed. 210M primers and metered (not weighed) charges of powders of our choice then seat bullets to a 2.800 inch average OAL. All sorts of medium speed powders were used, Re-15, AA2520, WW 748, IMR4895, IMR3031 and others I now forget.

Accuracy tests consisted of 20-shot strings at 1000 yards. And some lab did pressure and velocity tests on the loads that were the most accurate. AA2520 ball powder produced the lowest spreads in both charge weight and muzzle velocity, but it was the worst for accuracy. We settled on IMR4895 metered to a 3/10ths grain spread in charge weight. Ammo was loaded on two Dillon 1050 progressives; one seating primers and uniforming case mouths and the other metering powder and seating bullets in the cases supplied by Winchester. Bullet runout was up to about 3/1000ths. Muzzle velocity spread was around 20 to 25 fps.

At a big long range match later in 1991, several top long range shooters from around the world said it shot no worse than about 3 inches at 600 yards; that's with several different chamber, bore and groove dimensions. A fall 1991 issue of Handloader Magazine had a story on that ammo showing a test group fired from a machine-rested Palma rifle (with a short throated SAAMI spec chamber) at 600 yards. 20 rounds picked at random shot into 2.7 inches as shown in the article's picture of it.
 
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A few things that I believe:

What makes for accuracy at the bench differs in rifle than in pistol, and I'm almost entirely a handgun guy. Though I do a bit of handloading for rifles, I pretty much stick to handguns and I currently reload for more than a dozen handgun calibers.

If you want my opinion of the top 3 things to shoot for in making quality, accurate HANDGUN ammo, my list will look like this:

1) Bullet. Pick a quality, consistent bullet, and the more surface area you have that is being gripped by the barrel, the better off you'll be. The bullets should be extremely close to each other in weight and their construction makes a difference in how well you can group them together on a target.

2) Brass. Use quality brass and sort them by headstamp. This is not foolproof because some brass with the same headstamp can come from wildly different lots and in some cases -- even come from different facilities in different places. Even still, sorting your brass gives you the best chance, IMO, at using the most similar brass you can use. What you are looking to avoid is having differing case capacities and varying levels of case thickness which affects the grip the brass case has on the bullet.

3) Powder charge. In handgun especially, where charge weights are low, having a consistent powder charge is essential to producing similar results. This becomes more difficult when you use SOME powders with SOME equipment, and the smaller the charge weight, the more difficult this is to remain consistent.

3) Technique at the bench. If you work single stage and you tool up to do 50 pieces of brass in each of the stages to finish with 50 loaded rounds -- you have probably made 50 fairly consistent rounds. However, those 50 rounds may not be quite as similar to the next 50 rounds you make as they would have been had you worked in larger batches and made 500 of them. Every time you change out a flare or seat/crimp die, you are making small adjustments.

I listed two number 3's because I couldn't decide between the two. :p
I still believe bullet selection is the number one key to making accurate ammo in handguns.
 
Everyone serious about shooting and developing loads should read "The Secrets of the Huston Warehouse"

In addition, read this:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA542434

The above link is about testing military ammo, besides case prep it was discovered that getting the bullet seated staight in the case is critical.

The link confirms the findings in the Secrets of the Hustion Warehouse.
 
To me the correct answer to all three is, it depends.

First, it's a math problem. Sources of error that affect group size don't add up linearly. They add up the way standard deviations do, as the square root of the sum of the squares. Each source of error adds a certain amount of area to the group, and the bigger the group gets, the smaller the change in radius needed to eliminate that same area, and the less significant it is to the diameter of the group.

YAWWWWWN! (There he goes again. Why should I care about the math?) Well, in this case its because it tells you why some accuracy loading steps matter to some guns and shooters, but don't seem to help others out at all.

Suppose I turn case necks on a benchrest gun and it improves my 100 yard groups from 1/4" circles to 1/8" circles. A 50% improvement! That's the difference between winning and not even placing in some benchrest matches. A very big deal! So, now I load the same ammo into a hunting rifle that normally shoots 1 moa groups without neck turning, but for which everything else is the same as the benchrest gun was (firing pin shape and protrusion and energy, chamber size, bore dimensions, barrel steel, barrel length and crown geometry). How much will neck turning improve the groups, assuming it reduces group area the same amount? 1/8"? Nope. Changing a 1/4" group to 1/8" removes 0.037 in² of area from a group that started with 0.049 in² of area. A 76% percent reduction in area. But if I subtract 0.037 in² from a round 1 moa group (0.861 in² of area), The same change is a much smaller percentage. It will only improve a 1 moa group by about 23 thousandths of an inch. Pretty impossible to see, given that it's less than random size variation from one group to the next.

So the trick is to address the dominant issues in your gun. What they are will vary with the platform. Are you going to worry about getting bullets perfectly straight into the cartridge, reducing it's runout? Well, Harold Vaughn showed 0.004" of bullet tilt only affected group radius in his gun by about 0.36 moa using a tight 6mm PPC machine rest platform. But A. A. Abbatiello showed that for a much looser miiltary type match rifle chamber in 30-06, that same 0.004" of tilt made almost 1.0 moa of difference on target. So, in your 1 moa hunting rifle, if it responds like Abbatiello's guns did, it might be the main accuracy issue you have. But if it responds like Vaughn's did, it might only shrink that 1 moa by about 7%, hard to see in the normal group size variation. So, with your bullet choice and chamber dimension it might be another almost invisible factor.

There's only one way to find out.

Components are different, too. Hatcher described loading two stick powders for National Match ammunition one year, both about like modern IMR4320, but one with a short grain and one with a long grain. The Frankford Arsenal loading equipment could dispense the short grain to ±0.3 grain precision (0.6 grain span). It could only dispense the long grain to ±0.85 grain precision (1.7 grain span). Yet, the coarse grain ammunition shot consistently better groups than the short grain loads and was selected for that year's national match load and several records were broken with it. Powder combustion is complicated and is affected by space between grains. My guess is that powder in the particular charge weight chosen behaved such that when the grains were more tightly packed it slowed the flame front passage just enough to make the powder behave as a slower burning powder would. The result was that increases in charge weight were compensated for by decreases in burn rate, resulting in bullet barrel time remaining about the same.

But who knows? A. A. Abbatiello used NM ammunition sorted with a runout gauge. If he'd been able to change the seating depth, would the runout still have been as critical? I don't know.

Twice in my life I've encountered guns with barrels so badly made that the rifling was unevenly deep on opposite sides of the bore. Both of them tumbled and keyholed anything you shot through them from about 25 feet on. One was a S&W m. 41 .22 Rimfire target pistol. The other was a 4" barrel on a Dan Wesson v.15. I've not seen this yet it in a rifle, but know of no reason it couldn't happen there, too. It's one instance in which the barrel has to be replaced before any loading practice you have in mind will make any difference to it.

I've also watched fellows so nervous they couldn't stay on paper from prone position at a local 100 yard reduced range match. It didn't matter for them how good or bad the guns or the ammo were. On the other hand I've been pleasantly surprised by how many beginning match shooters will arrive on the line with something looser than Fibber McGee's closet, declaring it shoots better than they do, only to find their best scores improve 10 or 15 points if you persuade them to use an accurized loaner rifle.

So, the bottom line is that shooting is a shooter, gun, ammo system. You have to decide where the weakest link is. If you can eliminate the shooter by shooting from a bench, that's one variable down, though most I see can't eliminate him as completely as they might believe by employing that course of action (they aren't good bench shooters). Still, you have to figure out what matters to your gun, then address those factors in your loading before addressing others. This will determine your top three.

I'll mention one last thing. One year I tried shooting 2520 in my M1A. That gun normally shot about 0.7 moa from prone, but with 2520 it was more like 1.2 moa. I tried adjusting the load, the seating depth and other physical factors. At the time I was using Federal 210M primers, being blissfully unaware of slamfire talk and also didn't know that going to a magnum primer could help spherical propellant ignition. What I tried was deburring the case flash holes. Bingo. Groups dropped to the usual 0.7 moa for that gun fired from the bench. That deburring never made a hint of improvement with any stick powder I tried in that gun. But with that primer and that powder at my charge weight, it mattered.

So, which loading steps are most important? It depends on where in the particular shooting system the dominant errors are. You can see how, in the last example, if I'd never tried anything but my favorite stick powders, I might have concluded that deburring flash holes makes no difference at all. It's easy to fool yourself into concluding things that are true for your particular equipment and loading data applies to all others, too, but that doesn't make it so. The only thing I know to do is try things until you find out what matters to the weapon(s) and shooter in question. Also, based on the math, things that didn't matter when your groups were big can begin to matter as your groups get small. Keep that in mind as your shooting skills improve.

So like I said; it depends.
 
Geeze, a reloading thread that hits the nail on the head and tells it straight! Well done!

Since the OP was looking for things that he could do to improve accuracy, I'll toss this in............

Anything that you do to improve consistency will help but throwing a ton of money at the issue won't guarantee a major return in accuracy. I'd like to address getting the best accuracy for the money spent.

I've experimented with almost every aspect of reloading to get the magic reload. I've weighed and sorted cases and bullets, weighed every powder charge, fiddled with primers on & on.

I read the post about powder charges being fairly unimportant as long as they're in the ballpark and it made me smile as that's exactly what I found.

I found that the biggest single factor in component selection is internal case capacity. The cases are formed differently and outwardly look the same. Internally, however, the volume of the cases varies a lot. Once, I sorted by case lot. Now, I just sort by brand. It matters. edit...This is not a big factor in pistol rounds. It is a major factor in long range rifle rounds.

I'll continue............
Loading match bullets at SD pistol distances is a waste of time and money. The return just isn't there. That is based on Ransom Rest tests and chronograph readings. Revolvers invariably have one chamber that isn't exactly like the others and there's not a lot you can do for that.

Match rifle bullets really come into play after 200 yards. At 200 or less, it doesn't make a lot of difference as long as you use a quality bullet.

At 600 yards, it's all about bullets and keeping them supersonic.

This is based on NRA position match shooting from 200-600 yards. I am NOT a benchrest bug hole shooter! Their opinion is probably different.

Flash
 
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I still have few tight neck rifles and lot of good rifle being build with what's called no-turn-necks.

I think most reloaders as they gain experience they have certain things they consider important vs having a list of do's and don'ts.
 
Sort Headstamps?

I have shot over 300 groups each in 9x19, .40S&W, and .45Auto. In each case, they were matched between cases that had the SAME headstamp and as close to the same weight a possible compared to a grab bag of random never-heard-of headstamps.
Averaging through all this data, for each caliber, the mixed brass tended to have an average smaller group size by about 0.20-0.45" in all three cartridges.
Comparing those cases where the matched cases produced a smaller group and where the mixed (and I do mean mixed) produces a smaller group, the mixed just edged out the matched about 52% to 48%.
Each matched pair was fired through the same gun, randomly, without my knowledge of what case and charge weight I was shooting--as blind as I could easily make it.
I say--It just doesn't matter.
 
Re Case capacity....I say--It just doesn't matter.

I reload for pistol and rifle and I agree that the internal case capacity of pistol cases is not a major issue.

It's like using match bullets at less than 50 feet. I think it's a waste of money. You can do it if you want to and it won't hurt anything but it won't be a cost effective change for what it gains for you in accuracy.

I have some .45's loaded on a mixed bag of cases right now and that doesn't bother me. Where you see a big difference is in rifle rounds for long range shooting. Some manuals even caution you to watch carefully for pressure signs when charging commercial versus military brass due to differences in internal case capacity.

I wasn't real clear. Thanks for pointing that out. I placed an edit in my initial post.

Flash
 
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1: Your powder burnrate and weight of charge needs to be compatable with bullet weight.

2: Case preperation

3: The bullet

THE BREAK DOWN

1: There are different types of powder from ball, extruded, long cut extruded, short cut extruded, spherical, flake, to name a few. All have different burn rates, different compaction, and volume size. In most cases the more volume the powder has in the case, the better the accuracy. the slower the burn rate is, the more pressure behind the bullet. Normally for heavier bullets slower burning powder is used. Keeping a constant amount of powder in each shell is the biggest factor.

2: The most important thing when it comes to case prep for accuracy is in the sizing process. Some neck sized only, some full length size depending on what weapon you shoot. The second most important thing in case prep would have to be trimming the length of the case along with chamfering and deburring the neck inside and out. Then primer pocket prep. next would have to be flash hole prep.

3: What effects the accuracy of the bullet most is the shape. long pointed bullets with boat tails are supposedly better for "cutting the wind". Flat based bullets with round noses are supposedly not as accurate. Then The weight of the bullet because the weight of the bullet determines how wind resistant it is. Then the hardness of the bullet. Harder bullets build more pressure because they don't shape in the barrel and go through it slower than a softer bullet. jacketed lead bullets seem to have the best accuracy because they form to the shape of the barrel when traveling through with less fouling to the barrel. Lastly how the bullet is seated in the case.

4: In my humble opinion, and this is only my opinion. You need to reload each and every gun differently to conform to the guns needs. Some guns shoot better with different powders, bullets ect...:cool:
 
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Too bad most "accuracy" determinations are flawed by us humans' inability to hold, fire and move in recoil exactly the same for each shot. Some are more repeatable than others, but such is life.

Regarding the comment:
What effects the accuracy of the bullet most is the shape.
I strongly disagree. Bullet balance is far more important than shape. The more unbalanced they are, the more they'll jump off the muzzle axis as they exit and take a more irregular spiraled path downrange as well as having a greater drag going through the air causing more vertical shot stringing as range increases. Doesn't matter how streamlined or blunt nosed they are; if all have exactly the same shape and weight and are perfectly balanced and leave at the same muzzle velocity in a stable atmosphere, they'll all go in the same hole down range because they all have the same ballistic coefficient for each one. The only difference is the streamlined ones will have less of a trajectory arc to the target than the blunt ones.

Nowadays, there's no significant difference between the best boattail and flat based bullets. Benchresters used to prefer flat based ones for short ranges but seems the boattail ones have finally equalled and often bettered them. It takes a rifle and shooter capable of consistant sub 2/10ths MOA at short range to tell the difference.
 
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Read the Houston Warehouse Story

If you haven't read The Secrets of the Houston Warehouse... it is pure speculation. Read it.. you'll learn a lot. Especially that there are lots of so called experts promoting different theories on reloading that are simply BS. When YOU can shoot 25 mil groups, I'll start listening to you. But till then I'll stick with the Houston Warehouse results. I just laugh at a lot of these opinions expressed here, after having read the Warehouse story.
 
If you haven't read The Secrets of the Houston Warehouse... it is pure speculation. Read it.. you'll learn a lot. Especially that there are lots of so called experts promoting different theories on reloading that are simply BS. When YOU can shoot 25 mil groups, I'll start listening to you. But till then I'll stick with the Houston Warehouse results. I just laugh at a lot of these opinions expressed here, after having read the Warehouse story.
I thought it was a fantastic story and an excellent read. And I did read all the way to the end as was suggested above and I thought the ending kinda sucked but the story was still fantastic.

However...
If you think that all the other theories on proven rifle accuracy are bunk because of the Houston Warehouse story, I would ask you where your warehouse is located.

Because it seems to me... and admittedly, I have only been around a bit more than 40 years... but MOST of the guys I see shooting rifles... the guys competing... the guys hunting... the guys who want bragging rights with buddies... they guys who simply want to chase the best they can manage... well, maybe I have lived my whole damn life in the dark, but almost all of those guys are not shooting in perfect warehouse conditions with bench mounted rifles that are built by engineering geniuses and guncrafting artists for untold FAT STACKS of money...

Those guys are usually shooting rifles... outdoors... in the sun or the wind or the rain.
When YOU can shoot 25 mil groups, I'll start listening to you.
You too, Chief. And here's a suggestion: heed the advice to not touch the stock of the rifle with your shoulder... I think it might slam violently in to that chip and might be uncomfortable.
 
schleeb,

laugh at opinions all you want, it's a free country. However, it comes across as rude that you say, "because this one story I read said this."

The "Houston Warehouse" is old internet lore, I first read it back in the 90's (and I'm a young guy on this forum, Clark and I have been bouncing around the internet bumping into each other for almost two decades now). A lot of new folks in the field of rifle accuracy really focus on benchrest because of how impossibly tight the groups seem to be compared to everything else. But the biggest reason for that is the whole point of benchrest is to remove the human from the equation.

The other thing is that benchrest as a game doesn't care how accurate you are (close to an aiming point) it cares only about the size of the shot group. Shooting a really tight group meaured in the tens of thousands in the 7 ring is going to score less than a looser shot group centered in the X ring with spillover into the ten and nine rings. This should give you a good working definition between "accuracy" and "precision" as confusing the two terms is also a common mistake people make.

So this thread is about "accuracy" and not about "precision." And accuracy is much harder to achieve than precision. You can laugh at that statement all you want, but watch those benchrest groups grow when someone tries to shoot a benchrest rifle across the course in an 88 shot high power format.

To sum it up, benchrest is a shooting discipline designed for precision. If you want a shooting discipline designed for accuracy (the first shot hitting where you want it, and repeating that) then you need a sport that scores hits.

Hope this helps you.

Jimro
 
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