we're overthinking certain aspects of CCW

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TailGator said:
.... guns are a hobby for a lot of people, and the SD aspects are a reason or excuse for indulging the hobby and maintaining a presence of the hobby with them during the day.
Thanks for making this point. I've thought about this quite a bit, and I do think that for many people, the interest in guns is primary, and a focus on self-defense can be a good way to justify the time and money they put into it.

The following is lifted from something I wrote a while ago, in one of those threads on how much "stuff" a person needs to carry... as my opinion hasn't changed, I'll just repost it here:
..........

For anyone who isn't required to carry a gun on the job [ETA: or facing a known, specific threat], having an interest in guns is a hobby, or a lifestyle choice, if you will. Some people are interested in large-caliber rifles and big game hunting, some people in shotguns and upland game hunting, and some are interested in handguns and self-defense (and shotguns and SD, etc., etc. ). Some people just like to have guns, whether or not they call it "collecting," and don't actually shoot them all that much. Some people are interested in a combination of those things, or some other aspect of the sport. All of these are fine.

Some folks have a very high level of interest in self-defense: they do a lot of research and spend a lot of money on the best possible tools and training, they travel most weekends to attend workshops or participate in defensive shooting competitions. They do all this because they like it. They enjoy it. It's fun.

And that's great. But they also need to justify the time and money they spend on what is basically a leisure activity. This is especially true in our rather puritanical culture, in which the whole idea of leisure, of doing things just because we enjoy them, is still morally suspect.

Believing that it's important to be prepared is a great rationale, not least because it happens to be true. :)

If you're spending a lot of time and money on self-defense, it's useful to believe that you're doing so because it's necessary in order to protect you and yours from real danger. But the odds that the average person will ever need a firearm are rather low, and the chances of being present at a riot, rampage shooting, or other event involving multiple shots or several assailants are... well, vanishingly small.

So there's a lot of potential for cognitive dissonance here: why spend so much time and money preparing for something so unlikely?

People resolve this in a couple of ways: some resolve it by perceiving more risk than there actually is, which is easy when we live in a media culture in which fear sells, and we're deluged with information about these statistically unlikely events whenever they do occur. For these people, a high level of perceived risk allows them to justify what they're doing.

Other people... assess the risk more accurately, but put more emphasis on the consequences of not being prepared for any eventuality: they know this is life-and-death stuff, so the time and money they spend is a good investment, and they like the feeling of preparedness that comes with carrying a gun, spare magazines, a backup, a knife or two, and a flashlight.

For a great many other gun owners, for whom self-defense isn't a primary interest, it still makes sense to carry a gun for protection, and/or keep one or two ready for home defense. They're entirely happy just to carry a five-shot revolver, which they know they'll probably never need. They're just not that into it, and that's fine.
 
It should also be remembered that CHL'rs who are posting are a self selected group, with substantially higher interest in the topic. You're average CHLer is not going to be vocal, and not so "high tech" focused. For example, my wife doesn't have a $2,000 heavily modified gun that would scare Patton. She has an inexpensive firearm that she knows how to use and practices with.

Besides, its her driving you have to really be afraid of...:cool:
 
I admit I played Dungeons & Dragons :o

What would you do?

Scenario: You are the last of your party to leave the pub, the rest of your comrades are already asleep in their beds at the inn when you notice three cloaked figures behind you, two cloaked figures in the shadows up ahead to the left and one cloaked figure in the shadows up ahead to the right...

You have a +3/+3 long sword (+4 against trolls), + 2 leather armor, and a magic missle wand...

what would you do ?
 
I suspect that we over-intellectualize a lot of things. It isn't that those things aren't important, it's that we're going about it the wrong way. We end up treating firearms as gadgets, fashion accessories (that's the BBQ gun), or collector's items. And we fail to internalize what it's all about.

That's a difficult idea to get across with our talking the subject to death, which would be contrary to the point I'm trying to make. It happens in other areas of our lives, too, if there is another area besides guns. We learn the letter but not the spirit of the thing. It may be helpful to have a spiritual director, in a manner of speaking and after all, Jeff Cooper was sometimes referred to as a guru. But that's just a starting point and the rest is up to us.
 
Some of the scenarios presented on TFL are educational, I’m not disputing that. But there do seem to be some people that seem fixated on “scenarios”, it’s almost like Dungeons and Dragons or a type of role play… I don’t know totally how to describe it but I get that vibe from some of the people who do the most scenario posting.

I call them Video Game Commandos
 
I read the "scenarios" posted occassionally and wonder about those that feel the need to carry 2 pistols and a knife where ever they go, keep a spare loaded pistol on the table when they are cleaning their regular carry in case someone breaks into their house right at that particular moment, or make a water tight panel in their shower for a pistol in case robbers bust through the bathroom door while they bathe. Seems a bit much to me and I don't want to live my life on that "heightened" of a level 24 hours a day. Seems more stressful than necessary. I'm more worried about where our country is headed and what life will be for the next generations. We appear to keep sliding more socialistic year after year.... JMHO
 
You have a +3/+3 long sword (+4 against trolls), + 2 leather armor, and a magic missle wand...what would you do ?
The answer involves an "out of period" weapon. Don't ask how I learned that phrase, but I won't be attending another Renaissance Fair any time soon. ;)

I agree with the OP, and I'd like to submit an additional thought: it doesn't matter how expensive my gun is, what kind of groups it shot for the guy in the gun magazine, how large the bore is, or how many rounds it holds. What matters is marksmanship.

For most people who are serious about carrying for self-defense, the money spent on getting a trigger job, a dehorn treatment, and 14 extra magazines would be much better used on ammunition, range time, and training.
 
Whatchu mean WE?

Drawing conclusions from net noise and the self selected samples that are forum poster populations is just flat out invalid.

I do not fit your pigeon holes. I doubt any significant part of the CCW population does. I am, however, amenable to usable data and statistics.
 
If you pay by the hour, the extra magazines pay for themselves.
True, but I'm not carrying them. ;)

I know a guy who carries the following:
  • Glock 20
  • four extra magazines
  • some kind of "tactical" knife
  • pepper spray
  • Ruger LCP
  • extra magazine for that
The guy is well over 300lbs. He gets winded walking 50 feet. He has sciatica. It hurts him to bend at the waist at the best of times, and I can't imagine all that weight is helping. What it will do is hinder his already-limited mobility in a fighting situation.

I can't convince him to change. He takes gun magazine rants as gospel, and he's convinced that when trouble comes to him, hardware will be his solution.

OK, then, let's have socialism.
I'd prefer cake, but thanks for the offer.
 
It's like that old joke,,,

Anyone who is more tactically aware and prepared than I am,,,
Is a paranoid idiot,,,

Anyone who is less tactically aware and prepared than I am,,,
Is a danged fool.

And my friends,,,
While I might chuckle at some posts,,,
I really do not feel I can ridicule anyone here for their choices.

More often I find myself wondering,,,
Does that person who treats each trip to the store,,,
As if it were a tactical incursion into an active combat zone,,,
Ever get to enjoy a peaceful relaxed moment in their entire lives?

I have a range acquaintance,,,
At the range I really enjoy his company,,,
But this man is so tactically aware he drives me crazy.

I've seen him flip open the snap on his retention holster,,,
When a car approached the range parking area.

He and his wife invited me out to dinner one weekend,,,
He called me that afternoon to enquire what pistol I would be carrying,,,
He wanted to know so he would be carrying the same caliber that I would have on me.

Just in case we got into a prolonged gun battle,,,
He wanted to be able to take the ammo from my corpse.

When I told him I would probably be carrying my .22 PLY,,,
He asked me to consider carrying my .25 PLY,,,
His wife had a Beretta .25 she could carry.

She is just as tactically ardent as he is,,,
They are a perfect couple,,,
Of "paranoid idiots".

Calling them paranoid idiots was an attempt at wry humor,,,
They really are two very good-hearted people,,,
Who seem terrified by modern society.

They have a panic room,,,
Their house is also a fortress,,,
Wrought iron bars on all windows,,,
An alarm system that would make Fort Knox proud,,,
This is beside the fact that each room contains a small arsenal of weaponry.

We went to their house for a late lunch one day,,,
His wife and I waited in the foyer while he cleared the house.

This is their chosen lifestyle.

My friends,,,
I couldn't live like that.

I carry a small pistol most of the time,,,
I do this for two reasons,,,
Because I can,,,
Just in case.

Aarond
 
Outside of driving back to the house post hurricane Ike, ironically I think I'm the most heavily armed when walking the daughter's wiener dogs. CC + spare clip + pepper spray + phone. Taking short dogs on a long walk requires commitment.
 
The guy is well over 300lbs. He gets winded walking 50 feet. He has sciatica. It hurts him to bend at the waist at the best of times, and I can't imagine all that weight is helping. What it will do is hinder his already-limited mobility in a fighting situation.

I can't convince him to change. He takes gun magazine rants as gospel, and he's convinced that when trouble comes to him, hardware will be his solution.

If the S ever hits the F, a heart attack or stroke will kill him more surely than any attcker: those things aready have a firm grip on him.

he's convinced that when trouble comes to him, hardware will be his solution.

Kind of like the hunters that think spending enough money on gear will fill their tag for them: thousands on a rifle and scope, hundreds on matching camo coat and coveralls, scents, yadayada....... nearly $100 on a box of shells, and nary a penny for practice ammo.
 
OP is spot on for the most part. But:

After all, those lazy gun-owners who buy a mouse gun and then "fire a little, carry a lot [in the pocket]" are really no better than the rest of the sheep flock, aren't they?

Nothing wrong with someone who isn't a gun enthusiast and doesn't spend a bunch of time at the range. Folks should be responsible enough, however, to achieve a minimum degree of competence with a weapon they intend to carry. Having a ND because they can't remember how to operate the gun could be a greater danger than a potential assailant.
 
I carry because I can. I think my wife carries because she couldn't in England, now she can.


C0untZer0
You have a +3/+3 long sword (+4 against trolls), + 2 leather armor, and a magic missle wand...

what would you do ?

I rolled a 19 on my dice, my Balrog ate you :D
Yea I used to play :D:D:D
 
Sounds like there are a percentage of people out there that are a little over the top when it comes to CC, SD and HD. But to pigeon hole conceled carry holders as paranoid is also a tad much. I don't think everyone who owns a gun, owns 37 guns and 900 rds.

I took my CC class so I would be legal doing what I was always doing before. I don't carry. But every vehicle has a weapon in it because I travel a lot. Plus I've been approached by strangers that seemed a little more "on edge" than regular folks.

Originally posted by JerryM:
I also wonder if some do not enjoy some good meals and fellowship because at a certain time in a certain restaurant they can't sit with their backs to the wall.

I sit with my back to the wall in restaurants because some maniac drove his truck trough the front of the Luby's in Killeen Texas and shot up the place. As I recall he fired 22 rds hitting 9 people. The only reason he didn't do more damage was because there were 2 LEO having lunch.

Being prepared doesn't mean you're a "gun nut".
 
Shooters,

Thank you all for your insightful responses. I apologize if I offended some of you by my use of characterizations and stereotypes -- was just trying to build an argument, not trying to pick a fight. And again, my post was directed towards obsessive behavior with regard to firearms as a defensive tool only. Obsessing about guns as a hobby or as a sport -- whole 'nother (fun) subject.

NightSleeper

to the OP: sooooo .... what you're trying to say is that just having a gun, regardless of caliber, is 99% the name of the game. The other 1% is all fluff ... caliber wars, carrying a BUG, etc.

Haha, yes, that's the basic conclusion of my verbose post. If you're gonna carry, carry all the time and know how to effectively employ your firearm. I submit that that's 99% of the game -- everything else (caliber, make/model, features/accessories) is just gravy. (Even taking Dr. Keck's higher estimate of 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms each year, that's still only a 0.065145% likelihood that the average American will hit someone else with a bullet in any given calendar year.)

So the way I see it, there's three types of CCW permit-holders I see on forums like this (which, I agree, tend to be a self-selecting group of enthusiasts):

1. The Myopic: Obsessively prepare for that 0.03% or 0.06% possibility -- go to the range to test out your latest toys, engage in internet wars about caliber sufficiency, get the latest and greatest piece of gear, build your EDC kit like you're in Helmand Province, not Houston, TX...but then ignore the other things in life that are more likely to harm/kill you (car accidents, heart disease, what-have-you). The gentleman Tom Servo described fits this description to a T.

2. The Paranoid: Be paranoid about everything. When it comes to firearms, be like the couple aarondhgraham described. But be consistent, and be like that for everything that's even MORE likely to harm/kill you -- with regard to car safety, always drive under 70mph, never drive on major highways, never drive at night, never leave loose objects in the car; with regard to fire/emergency/disaster preparedness, build a bomb shelter with an independent ventilation system and years of food/water supplies, obsessively recycle so you never have piles of paper/flammable material lying around, rehearse your evacuation plan every other week, never live in an area prone to any type of natural disaster, buy ventilation suits/gas masks, etc; with regard to heart safety, always eat whole bran, never eat French fries, obsessively exercise two hours a day, take a cocktail of Lipitor/Crestor/etc.

3. The Reasonable: Prepare for the highly unlikely (and yet disastrous if it happens) possibility of a defensive gun fight, but only as part of a wholistic regimen of self-awareness and self-preparedness. Get a good, reliable firearm, become as familiar with it as possible, receive some sort of expert training, and continue to maintain a basic level of proficiency -- but then worry about the more likely disasters you may face in your life.


...I'd rather be in the good company of the last group than worry too much about the myopic and the paranoid who scoff and dismiss me as just another sucker/naive sheepie (and not a true sheep dog) with a mouse gun about to be gang-raped by a group of drugged-up crazies tomorrow night.
 
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1. I do not carry for the statiscal gun fight. I carry to have a means of protecting myself in the event of being confronted with a lethal threat. Why do some folks get all caught up in statistics, even to the mth decimal place ?

2. I really do not care what vehicle anyone drives and realize that for me an automobile is simply to get me from point A to point B. I suspect the same is true for most others. Some folks do it with fancy sports cars, some with luxury cars, some with sport utility vehicles. There seems to be a wide varity of colors, shapes, equipment and styles. I think the same is true for firearms and their accoutrements. Why get caught up over it ?
 
Maybe you shouldn't bash the decision-making of others who are proactively taking steps to safeguard life -- in a real, wholistic sense -- which includes but is not limited to responsible firearm ownership/usage. Maybe that consistently reliable gun owner who fires a little but always (ALWAYS) pocket carries the LCP or PF-9 because he takes CCW seriously has got 99% of it -- make that 99.9657% of it -- figured out.

Got it. You don't like it because it has made you feel bad that folks think you should practice more and carry a more substantial caliber (given that this is a gun forum with a lot of self defense-related threads) and so you are telling folks to get off your back because you don't like being told these things.

But be consistent, and be like that for everything that's even MORE likely to harm/kill you -- with regard to car safety, always drive under 70mph, never drive on major highways, never drive at night, never leave loose objects in the car; with regard to fire/emergency/disaster preparedness, build a bomb shelter with an independent ventilation system and years of food/water supplies, obsessively recycle so you never have piles of paper/flammable material lying around, rehearse your evacuation plan every other week, never live in an area prone to any type of natural disaster, buy ventilation suits/gas masks, etc; with regard to heart safety, always eat whole bran, never eat French fries, obsessively exercise two hours a day, take a cocktail of Lipitor/Crestor/etc.

Now you feel that you need to tell folks how to do everything else despite the fact that you don't like being told that what you are doing isn't compliant with some people's views.

I hate to say it, but you yourself are not being consistent.
 
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