Were Firearms Made Better In The "Old" Days? Thoughts please.
- Thread starter Robk
- Start date
SwampYankee
New member
I think older guns are generally better guns for one simple reason: The people making the guns cared about them.
In 1950, a guy who worked for Big Gun Manufacturer would work there his whole life. He would get paid a reasonable salary, get a pension and be able to live comfortably. He would be a skilled class of worker and would likely have some pride in the company. And he would be valuable to his company.
In 2011, a guy who works for Big Gun Manufacturer runs a machine. He can't program the machine. He can put metal in and take metal out. In an era where everyone has a college education, he does not need an education or much skill to do his job. He is unskilled labor. He gets paid poorly, his wife works to keep the household running, and if a better job is offered somewhere else, he will take. He has no loyalty to the company nor the people he works with nor the products it makes. He is replaceable and his bosses look for ways to reduce the numbers of him and his colleagues, not to mention their salary and benefits at every opportunity.
Machines may make a lot of parts flawlessly, but guns are still hand assembled and quality control is a human task. If you're workers don't care about the product or the company, it suffers.
Is it the fault of the Big Gun Manufacturer? Probably not. We don't live in 1950 and we couldn't afford their product if they still treated their workers like it was 1950. Which invariably means you get what you pay for.
Half of the stuff that leaves Taurus should never have left the factory floor, yet it does. Why? Workers are unskilled, don't care and quality control is the same. If you care about your people and they care about your product and your reputation, you make quality.
In 1950, a guy who worked for Big Gun Manufacturer would work there his whole life. He would get paid a reasonable salary, get a pension and be able to live comfortably. He would be a skilled class of worker and would likely have some pride in the company. And he would be valuable to his company.
In 2011, a guy who works for Big Gun Manufacturer runs a machine. He can't program the machine. He can put metal in and take metal out. In an era where everyone has a college education, he does not need an education or much skill to do his job. He is unskilled labor. He gets paid poorly, his wife works to keep the household running, and if a better job is offered somewhere else, he will take. He has no loyalty to the company nor the people he works with nor the products it makes. He is replaceable and his bosses look for ways to reduce the numbers of him and his colleagues, not to mention their salary and benefits at every opportunity.
Machines may make a lot of parts flawlessly, but guns are still hand assembled and quality control is a human task. If you're workers don't care about the product or the company, it suffers.
Is it the fault of the Big Gun Manufacturer? Probably not. We don't live in 1950 and we couldn't afford their product if they still treated their workers like it was 1950. Which invariably means you get what you pay for.
Half of the stuff that leaves Taurus should never have left the factory floor, yet it does. Why? Workers are unskilled, don't care and quality control is the same. If you care about your people and they care about your product and your reputation, you make quality.
Archer 9505
New member
Yes and No.
The guns of old' were made at a time when skilled labor was relatively cheap and technology expensive. Today is just the opposite. The fore mentioned Registered Magnum will out shine all but the very top end modern customs in fit, finish, lock up and just plain beauty. An off the shelf Glock will take a beating that the old S&W was never meant to endure and continue to shoot. That being said, if you want to send me something for Father's Day; I'll take the Registered Magnum.
The guns of old' were made at a time when skilled labor was relatively cheap and technology expensive. Today is just the opposite. The fore mentioned Registered Magnum will out shine all but the very top end modern customs in fit, finish, lock up and just plain beauty. An off the shelf Glock will take a beating that the old S&W was never meant to endure and continue to shoot. That being said, if you want to send me something for Father's Day; I'll take the Registered Magnum.
LockedBreech
New member
johnbt said:
I don't think anyone would argue that a Gen 3 Glock is better crafted than a S&W Registered Magnum. Easy way to lose an argument. I still think it's up in the air, though, as to which of those would function longer if the trigger was pulled repeatedly. Aren't there Glocks that have hit six-figure round counts without a loss of function? Then again, I'm not sure of the average frame life of a revolver, so I'm flying a bit blind here.
Well, today we take shortcuts in parts. Guns back then where not shot like they are today thus this is why you see more breakage. Back then(1930's~1960's) you bought a gun it was for shooting once in a while or self defence, you did not go to the gun range/shooting lands and blow 500~1,000 rounds a year. Today you got guys shooting 2,000+ rounds a year in some guns or all combined with 22lr. Maybe they where built a better back then. Maybe we just see more breakage in todays firearms because we shoot so much as compared to the past. We also didn't have internet to talk about this back then, and people really didn't have a whole lot of money to be buying 550 round bulk packs each week.
This year alone I have shot 1,500+ 22lr, 400 or so 9mm and 100 12g. Thats about $180in ammo + range fees. Money is more today than in the 30's~60's, people didn't have stock piles of 22lr waiting to be shot at the gun range. I met someone who keeps over 5k 22lr always on hand. Some people I talked to on the internet try to keep atlest 500~1,000 rounds on hand of ALL calibers of their guns.
What I see today, is people trying make a quick buck, selling scams on TV that rarely work, using cheap labor in other countries.
This year alone I have shot 1,500+ 22lr, 400 or so 9mm and 100 12g. Thats about $180in ammo + range fees. Money is more today than in the 30's~60's, people didn't have stock piles of 22lr waiting to be shot at the gun range. I met someone who keeps over 5k 22lr always on hand. Some people I talked to on the internet try to keep atlest 500~1,000 rounds on hand of ALL calibers of their guns.
What I see today, is people trying make a quick buck, selling scams on TV that rarely work, using cheap labor in other countries.
Last edited:
9mm, I disagree. I loosely classify most gun owners as Shooters, these are enthusiasts that are really into it for 1 reason or another; Casual Gun Owners, they own a gun or 2 for home defense or blasting at the fox near the hen house; and Hunters, who shoot 1 shot at the beginning of the hunt to make sure the rifle is still sighted in and save the rest for game, they may go through a box in 4 years. I think most of us would call ourselves shooters, but we all probably know someone that would fall into the other categories. This is as it has been for decades.
I don't think we're taking shortcuts in parts, I think we've found new ways to make may parts. I think we see a lot more breakage in parts because the internet allows the information to be out there. Years ago you got your information from the gun press, the gun store or the gun club.
The internet has exposed a lot of people to the realities that have always been out there.
I don't think we're taking shortcuts in parts, I think we've found new ways to make may parts. I think we see a lot more breakage in parts because the internet allows the information to be out there. Years ago you got your information from the gun press, the gun store or the gun club.
The internet has exposed a lot of people to the realities that have always been out there.
I think all the hand fitting was required because the equipment of the day wasn't capable of the precision machining of modern equipment. Today's guns are better engineered, yesterday's were better built. Slide rules and drafting tables vs computers with MathCAD and Solidworks.
As a lifelong manufacturing professional I respectfully disagree with this statement. While it is true I have not worked in firearms manufacturing specifically I do not believe there is something inherently unusual about it that results in employees that do not care. While the argument that management may be overly focused on profits might hold some weight blaming the employees as a whole is mistaken – at least in my opinion. Most employees if given the choice would go back to the “craftsman” days, but it is no longer practical for the large volume manufacturers.
The golden age of firearms
1948 TO 1980, IS MY FAVORITE TIME PERIOD TO LOOK FOR RIFLES, SHOTGUNS, REVOLVERS & PISTOLS. MY REASONS ARE HISTORICALLY TOO LONG TO LIST, BUT HAVING LONG DISCUSSIONS WITH MANY TALENTED GUN SMITHS IN THE PAST 40 YEARS HAVE CONFIRMED MY HYPOTHESIS. FOR EXAMPLE:
DID A DETAIL STRIP, CLEAN, RESPRING, & LUBE ON A 1911 .45 AUTO MADE IN THE YEAR 1914. THE 4-DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER & INSPECTORS MARKS CLEARLY IDENTIFIED THE PISTOL. TOOK IT TO MY GUN CLUB RANGE, SET UP A SIL. PAPER TARGET, & STARTED SHOOTING. DISTANCE WAS 25 FEET.
FIRED 1 ROUND OF MY ALL-PURPOSE HANDLOAD (200gr. Cast Lead SWC, 7.0 Unique, & WLP primer. Seated to 1.250" OAL & taper crimped) INTO THE CRANIUM AREA TO CHECK SIGHT REGULATION & THEN PROCEEDED TO PUT THE NEXT 6 INTO ONE RAGGED HOLE THAT MEASURED 1.000" !!!!!!
REMEMBER, IN THOSE DAYS, ALL MACHINING WORK WAS DONE BY PEOPLE TRAINED IN THE ART OF MACHINING METAL---NO CNC IN THOSE DAYS.
GURU1911
1948 TO 1980, IS MY FAVORITE TIME PERIOD TO LOOK FOR RIFLES, SHOTGUNS, REVOLVERS & PISTOLS. MY REASONS ARE HISTORICALLY TOO LONG TO LIST, BUT HAVING LONG DISCUSSIONS WITH MANY TALENTED GUN SMITHS IN THE PAST 40 YEARS HAVE CONFIRMED MY HYPOTHESIS. FOR EXAMPLE:
DID A DETAIL STRIP, CLEAN, RESPRING, & LUBE ON A 1911 .45 AUTO MADE IN THE YEAR 1914. THE 4-DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER & INSPECTORS MARKS CLEARLY IDENTIFIED THE PISTOL. TOOK IT TO MY GUN CLUB RANGE, SET UP A SIL. PAPER TARGET, & STARTED SHOOTING. DISTANCE WAS 25 FEET.
FIRED 1 ROUND OF MY ALL-PURPOSE HANDLOAD (200gr. Cast Lead SWC, 7.0 Unique, & WLP primer. Seated to 1.250" OAL & taper crimped) INTO THE CRANIUM AREA TO CHECK SIGHT REGULATION & THEN PROCEEDED TO PUT THE NEXT 6 INTO ONE RAGGED HOLE THAT MEASURED 1.000" !!!!!!
REMEMBER, IN THOSE DAYS, ALL MACHINING WORK WAS DONE BY PEOPLE TRAINED IN THE ART OF MACHINING METAL---NO CNC IN THOSE DAYS.
GURU1911
GURU1911: First typing in all caps is not a good thing.
If 48 to 80 was the "Golden Age" why was your example a 1914 M1911?
Personally I've handled several guns made in the 70s and 80s that had fit and finish problems which weren't evident in pre-war models.
I think we should compare modern guns to those made in the 70s and 80s. They look pretty good through that lens.
If 48 to 80 was the "Golden Age" why was your example a 1914 M1911?
Personally I've handled several guns made in the 70s and 80s that had fit and finish problems which weren't evident in pre-war models.
I think we should compare modern guns to those made in the 70s and 80s. They look pretty good through that lens.
orionengnr
New member
No, it's not limited to the firearms industry--it's just a by-product of today's "entitled" youth. You can find numerous examples in any industry.
Youth of the last 20 years have been coddled and raised to believe that they are "special". They do not have a work ethic. They ae self-absorbed and care about nothing but themselves.
I realize I am painting with a broad brush, and there are always exceptions, but for the most part, it is right on the money.
My Ruger Pistols I bought in the last 12 months shoot as good as anything I bought in the last 20 years.
With record and logs being computerized these days it makes it is pretty easy for a good analytical person to detect where problems are coming from.
In the past using written records it might have taken me 2 hours to find a problem. Today it only takes me a few minutes to write up queries and find out where problems are.
With record and logs being computerized these days it makes it is pretty easy for a good analytical person to detect where problems are coming from.
In the past using written records it might have taken me 2 hours to find a problem. Today it only takes me a few minutes to write up queries and find out where problems are.
Well, I understand that values including the work ethic or under attack in this country. However, I think focusing our frustration on one particular generation is unfair. Yes, we all run into some sorry workers, but they are just as likely to be 65 as 25. The breakdown I am afraid started much more than twenty years ago. Today’s youth are simply a byproduct of a society that we and those that came before us created.
Colt Match
When I was a kid I owned a Colt Officers Match 38 SPL. It was Pre-WW2 MFG. I paid about half the price of Colt Python about $65 dollars for it. I had just paid $85 for a used Colt Officer's Modle Match 357. The 357 was the HOT Tamale back then, a 357 was worh two 38 spl's!
That revolver was totaly hand polished, the trigger was like glass, the blue job was perfect, the sights were interchangable front and rear
I could hit a 2.5" bull at 100 yards 4 outa six rounds with that firearm, 10 times better than most FBI shooters!
the OLD six shooters were hand fitted/polished, Hand polished, ouytside and inside.
The early auto handguns were the same and every gun handled different but they were killer accurate, I mean killer accurate.
I fired an early 38 Colt ACP 1911 in 1970 that shot like a target pistol and would CYA out to 100 yards!
yes the OLD handguns were BUILT BETTER,,,,,,These Boyos that opine about guns built in the 1980's like it was in a Pharos age are squeking out thier ash, they have NO background to judge by, the 1980's gave birth to modern speciality gunsmiths that carried foward the skills dropped by the big gun mfgs just like what happened with automobiles. The shooting public is better served for it! there are highly skilled gunsmithes by the 100's that never existed when I was a kid because of big gun mfgs sliding by.
When I was a kid I owned a Colt Officers Match 38 SPL. It was Pre-WW2 MFG. I paid about half the price of Colt Python about $65 dollars for it. I had just paid $85 for a used Colt Officer's Modle Match 357. The 357 was the HOT Tamale back then, a 357 was worh two 38 spl's!
That revolver was totaly hand polished, the trigger was like glass, the blue job was perfect, the sights were interchangable front and rear
I could hit a 2.5" bull at 100 yards 4 outa six rounds with that firearm, 10 times better than most FBI shooters!
the OLD six shooters were hand fitted/polished, Hand polished, ouytside and inside.
The early auto handguns were the same and every gun handled different but they were killer accurate, I mean killer accurate.
I fired an early 38 Colt ACP 1911 in 1970 that shot like a target pistol and would CYA out to 100 yards!
yes the OLD handguns were BUILT BETTER,,,,,,These Boyos that opine about guns built in the 1980's like it was in a Pharos age are squeking out thier ash, they have NO background to judge by, the 1980's gave birth to modern speciality gunsmiths that carried foward the skills dropped by the big gun mfgs just like what happened with automobiles. The shooting public is better served for it! there are highly skilled gunsmithes by the 100's that never existed when I was a kid because of big gun mfgs sliding by.
Last edited:
ice monkey
New member
Were Firearms Made Better In The "Old" Days?
Well I would have to agree with others that perhaps there was more care put into them in the old days, but I think that’s only a derivative created by the lack of technology then as opposed to now.
Now I am only talking about semi-auto handguns here, but I recall reading reviews as a kid where every semi had a break-in period. It was a given born out of necessity. Not that I would recommend slapping a Sig or Glock on your side right out of the box today, but conceivably … you could do it if you knew how the gun functioned. I don’t think one could have ever thought to do that in the past.
A lot of people talk about handguns having soul, and to be honest, I think that comes from people having been forced to work out the “bugs” in their guns. Maybe that’s why there are so many loyal 1911 fans … uh oh!
My point is, if only looking at break-in recommendations … we have come a long way in making a tool that’s meant to go bang every time do so, and that to me means we are making better guns or well, pistols anyway.
BTW – does anyone else find it funny/awesome that the last two posters have signatures of quotes; one by Milton Friedman, and the other by Glenn Beck?
Well I would have to agree with others that perhaps there was more care put into them in the old days, but I think that’s only a derivative created by the lack of technology then as opposed to now.
Now I am only talking about semi-auto handguns here, but I recall reading reviews as a kid where every semi had a break-in period. It was a given born out of necessity. Not that I would recommend slapping a Sig or Glock on your side right out of the box today, but conceivably … you could do it if you knew how the gun functioned. I don’t think one could have ever thought to do that in the past.
A lot of people talk about handguns having soul, and to be honest, I think that comes from people having been forced to work out the “bugs” in their guns. Maybe that’s why there are so many loyal 1911 fans … uh oh!
My point is, if only looking at break-in recommendations … we have come a long way in making a tool that’s meant to go bang every time do so, and that to me means we are making better guns or well, pistols anyway.
BTW – does anyone else find it funny/awesome that the last two posters have signatures of quotes; one by Milton Friedman, and the other by Glenn Beck?
Last edited: