Weaver vs Isosceles?

Duke has done a number of brilliant things.Most are a spinoff of using computer software to replicate human motion in sports, but it has spilled over into some studies commissioned by the military to see how soldiers and various fighters move.
The use robotic arms and legs for example which replicate human motion from videos or movies.
Duke has had sensational success with sports because of this. They take an athletes video in a game and then break it down to stick figures and watch how they move. This aids coaches in coaching the sports folks on how to move or not to move. They can also transfer the motion of the arms and legs to robotic arms and legs and watch at various speeds to see how the human body performs.
That technology has not been used in most police or military training, but is gaining ground as we bring those actual shooting videos on line.
So far what I have seen shows very disorganized effort and an obvious inability of the mind to process incoming information and convert it to reaction to the incoming information properly. Sort of an overload that doesn't process well.
A big problem is trying to figure out why some do complex moves with ease and others seem to come unglued.
 
plusp, the US Olympic training center in Colorado has been using that technology for awhile, with a lot of success in the areas of track & field and swimming.

if you're interested in seeing how effective you are with one or more limbs out of action, try standing on one leg or sitting on the ground and then punch a heavy bag. very alarming results; without the impetus of both legs, your blows will be surprisingly weak. which indicates to me that you might want to use stances that allow you to have "quick feet" to avoid a kick to the knee.

Gopher, for me, Isoceles (at least with respect to the arms) does two things. one, it reduces one "flex point" from the recoil equation, thus making the whole system a bit stiffer. this can be a Good Thing in terms of reducing the chance of a limp-wrist-induced stoppage. secondly, having locked elbows simplifies the action list when shooting a long string (like a full-panic "fire-to-lockback" exercise). sometimes I tend to let the recoil work my hands and torso back until I'm in poor balance. leaning well forward solves part of the problem, but the bent elbows of a Weaver seems to require that I reposition my arms while recovering from recoil. this is especially true when shooting at longer ranges, since I have to relax a lot to reduce muscle tremors.
 
Gopher and Covert Mission,
You guys had me running out to the video store. I love that movie and had to see it again. The Black Knight scene is the best.
"but a flesh wound" I still like the scene with the white rabbit the best. :)

Gopher,
Ivanhoe covered it in his post, if you chose to shoot with your elbows locked out. I understand your concerns about stiff=slow, but this is not muscular tension. Just straighten your arms and push the front sight into the target.

Does anybody have any suggestions for shooting on the move? Thats an achilles heel for everybody, no matter what posture/stance we chose.

My most recent shot at shooting on the move was at a SWAT competition shoot. The course of fire involved running up 2 flights of stairs, entering a room and engaging several hostiles. There were also hostages/no-shoots. I had to stage at the bottom of the stairs and wait for the man-up command, meaning the SHTF and one of the room clearing teams was in trouble. Double taps on all bad guys. Man that was tough, just when I think I'm getting pretty good, they go and do that. :)

Needless to say, I am now focusing a lot of training/dry practice time on engaging targets on the run.
One drill I've been doing was mentioned by one of the trainers at the shoot. Put a penny on top of your slide, then move around the area engaging targets. The object, of course, is to move as fast as possible without dropping the penny, while still picking up the targets.

Any suggestions?



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"JKD is about...discovering the cause of your own ignorance"
 
speakno.jpg
 
FVK,

Shooting on the move is actually simple. We've been walking around for years so that part of the problem is already solved for us. (There may even be a few hundred videos out there showing people walking so they can be studied!). The only problem is integrating the weapon and the movement.

In advanced levels, the shooting "platform" exists from the waist up. What the lower body is doing is not important.

With this in mind, hold the weapon in whatever posture you normally shoot from. As far as your lower body: bend the knees slightly, keep the feet pointed straight forward, and walk in a heel - to - toe manner (using a rolling gait).

Think of how you'd walk on an ice skating rink, or a very slippery surface. You'd keep your balance by taking short steps, and walking as I described. Its actually very easy, and it minimizes the up and down motion that will play havoc with your shot placement.

As far as the weapon itself, I advocate the coin trick you discussed. Learn to integrate gun and movement by moving forward and back, and them by moving laterally. You'll be surprised at how accurate you become within 7 yards and in.

Also, understand that this type of Shooting On The Move is more proactive and aggressive than how you would move in a reactive manner.

Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
Think of how you'd walk on an ice skating rink, or a very slippery surface. You'd keep
your balance by taking short steps, and walking as I described. Its actually very easy, and it minimizes the up and down motion that will play havoc with your shot placement.
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In Minnesota and many many other states we walk on ice and snow 6 months out of the year. I also tried the cute short steps thing and someone got me some talcom powder.
Most shooters when faced with death (yup, plenty of videos) the don't take short steps. Like telling someone during sex to take short strokes.
It is not uncommon for shooters to miss VEHICLES at close range even when standing still.
Many Olympic quality sports teams are taking advantage of Duke University's efforts on body motion. A shame the shooting community will blow off science for more theories.
In one shooting on our web page showing an officer shooting at a car at almost contact distance he missed several shots and only wounded the driver. Since this was a CHP officer maybe someone has more info on this shooting. Watching the entire video the officer at the end almost "snaps" a shot at the car like Andy Devine used to do on the old Wild Bill Hickock TV show. If he resorted to his training I'd also like to see what he did on the range.
Yup, another tell tale video.
lacarshoot1.jpg



[This message has been edited by pluspinc (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
plusp,
Come on dude, look at that guys gut, when was the last time he trained? :) Right after that second serving of mashed potatoes! :D

But seriously plusp, I'm talking about shooting on the move in a room clearing scenario. This is something myself and alot of other people do everyday in the course of serving search warrants and arrest warrants.

You have to have methods you teach for this, your a firearms instructor. I would like to hear your alternatives to Gabe's method. I was taught something everyone refers to as the "Groucho" walk. I'm going to try Gabe's recommendation tomorrow morning at the range, I would like to give your ideas a try.

If anyone knows the guy in plusp's picture, don't take my comments harshly. I know alot of guys in line patrol that are out of shape. I probably would be too, if I didn't have mandatory physical agility testing to maintain SWAT status. I just love playing with all the cool toys(MP-5) too much to have that second, okay, third serving of my wifes apple dumplings. Plus, there are alot of guys in my martial arts gym that would love to catch me out of shape :)

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"JKD is about...discovering the cause of your own ignorance"
 
I last took formal training in the mid-70's, but it was pretty intense training.

What we learned was the old-style, inefficient, inaccurate one-handed grip. (Quoth the instructor: "If you're gonna use two hands, grab a rifle."

Sideways to target, right arm at full extension, standard grip.

I don't shoot in any "official" events, but in my pistol league, I'm one of the few that shoots this way. There are more accurate shooters than me - but damn few can put 5 rounds into the "kill" zone of a target as quickly as I do.

In the events in which a two-handed grip is required or useful (i.e., 50'), I go with iscoceles. In an actual combat situation, I would almost certainly turn my torso to be side-on to my opponent, and fire one-handed.

*MUCH* harder for them to hit me that way.

Mileage, of course, varies widely.

-=<MIDNIGHT WRITER>=-
 
6forsure,
My bad, I stand corrected.

My point is people can't keep using video of guys that usually don't train to tell everybody that does train, how we will respond. If that was true someone better call the pentagon and cancel the training budget for all Spec-Ops units. Their just wasting their time and tax dollars.

And that was the point of Matrix's post, I believe. How do we train, whatever "stance" we choose, to function at a high level of skill. ie;recovery, shot placement, shooting on the move etc.

I have had a lot of training, and I still ask myself, how can I get better in the most efficient manner? The more I'm around guys like Ron Avery, Gabe Suarez, Jerry Barnhart and Hershel Davis the more I want to train.

I asked Hershel how things went the first time he was in a free fire zone. He said he was scared, BUT THEN HIS TRAINING TOOK OVER AND HE DID WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO.

So lets hear it, how do you guy's TRAIN?



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"JKD is about...discovering the cause of your own ignorance"
 
>>So lets hear it, how do you guy's TRAIN?<<

I'll take my chances with training, to not train is an incompetent suicide wish.

>>He said he was scared, BUT THEN HIS TRAINING TOOK OVER AND HE DID WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO.<<
 
Good lord. Talk about lame excuses. This guy is a California Highway Patrol officer and what in the hell does his weight have to do with his performance in this situation? He might have big feet also. Are we all supposed to be athletic types? I'm 6-6 and about 290. Makes me wonder how I survived my shootings. The ISSUE is he MISSED the car several times and only wounded the driver at that range. I am sure he met all state standards and certifications for his job. The size thing really has me stumped. An amazing stretch to try and make a point which I will save for future use if nobody objects.
When we get hit in the face with well documented images showing the problem it doesn't sit well and it shouldn't.
As for "in a room" I dont know if you are talking a ballroom or normal sized 13x13 room.
At 21 feet or less we know what the hit rate is and most are within 11-10 feet according to NYPD and 4,000+ shootings. In most shootings (avoid extreme cases please) most folks are not flying about like a Chinese acrobat team.
Trying to find way out extreme cases is hardly realistic when we can't perform with more obvious known circumstances.
I agree a moving target will greatly diminish the hit rate but most will go a lifetime in law enforcement or civilian training and never shoot at a moving target. Those that do are mostly silly things on a track that move forward or backward or turn. When they bend, twist and knock the hell out of you I'll be impressed.
An Israeli once told me along with a KGB type that our training is rather sissy like. "Nobody gets hurt or killed," the KGB guy laughed. They think training has to have some risks and consequences. I agree, but we have to many lawyers. Biggest risk I had in the police academy was someone spilling my soda.
 
> An Israeli once told me along with a KGB type that our training is rather sissy like.

The Israelis might have some intense, realistic training, but Yitzak Rabin would probably tell them there's still room for improvement. ;)
 
The Israelis have a different way of Shooting on the move. I trained with a couple of them a few years back, and they are very aggressive. i gues thats what you get when you are surrounded on all sides by the enemy.

Rather than shoot as they move, they rush into position, stop, and fire. It works OK. I still prefer the methods I described above. I didn't invent them, I learned them from my SWAT sensei, Gary Rovarino. These methods are in use by just about all the high-speed groups I've had the opportunity to work with.

My recommendation is to work it slow, in dry practice, with the coin added for difficulty. Then speed it up a bit at a time. When you develop good skills here, head shots are possible on the move from 7 yards.

Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
plusp,
I believe we are talking past each other. Athleticism has everything to do with performing at an elite level. Why would every Spec-Ops unit in the world, including the Israeli's, have stringent fitness requirements?
Your talking about baseline training when you mention the academy. Most officers I know have not, nor could they, pass a fitness exam since being hired.

I don't think anyone here can dispute this fact, a physically fit person will perform better under stress than a unfit person will.
My heart rate gets up to 160-180 bpm regularly as part of my training regimen. No doubt that has helped a great deal when I have to run up several flights of stairs with 60 pounds of gear and a ram. Recover quickly from all the hut-hut-hut stuff and get ready to go to work.
I know guys that can't even walk up a drive-way without being out of breath, its always re-assuring to have them there as back-up on those nasty domestics. :rolleyes:
I understand what you are attempting to do plusp, you have faced the reality as a trainer, that most guys don't train. So give them a method that takes advantage of the bodies natural response to fear,ie; arms pushed straight out etc. I applaud that, but how about guys that love to train. What or how would you train them? Thats what I'm talking about.
As far as "what kind of room?" I would say the size of room doesn't make as much of an effect on my tactics as the shape of the room would, thanks for making me think. :)
In most of those cases my gun is out and I'm searching. As a patrol man, plusp, I know you have had to do building searches, how did you do them?

Gabe,
Tried your method and I think with a little more work I could come to like it. :) Even if you don't shoot isoceles, heathen :D

Now before you guys point out all the exceptions to the rule, the fat guys that perform great. We recently, last month, had an officer involved shooting. The officer was way out of shape, but, he did wonderfully. No, he didn't see his sights, I asked. No, he didn't use any "stance". He held the gun in one hand, punched the guy in the chest with his other hand, knocked the guy back and then he shot him. The guy had a knife, the officer was cut, a little shook up, but otherwise okay.
So there are exceptions.

On a side note, isn't it great to have a thread going about training :)


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"JKD is about...discovering the cause of your own ignorance"
 
Gee, the Israeli's training is "aggressive?" Damn right it is as our should be. Also in regards to fitness we can now assume the females of the world and those over 40 are worthless in self-defense. Interesting logic. Also fat people can't perform.
Aren't there some wrestlers in Japan you wouldn't want to screw with?
We find "normal" folks do very well at self defense. Self-defense is far more MENTAL than physical. Shooting a gun and related acts doesn't take a muscle bound type to do it. It is simple in fact. It is the mental things that decide how we do, not physical.
I have cases of BLIND people defending themselves with guns very well, or others with physical disabilities including a 92 year old female in Chicago.
If someone has a study showing waist size vs surviveability bring it on. It could be over when the FAT lady sings and shoots.
Self-defense shootings seldom require much muscular effort. Most can bench press a 1911A1 pretty easy. I'm for fitness, but it isn't a serious player in self-defense with firearms or in self-offense. I think Sam Colt had a comment on that. Anyone remember it? He was right.
 
I told you how I train; I don't think about stance or grip, I think about sight alignment and trigger control.
I change guns frequently to ensure my focus on those criteria.


front sight.....front sight.....front sight.....

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Goodness, with my limited experience have I have figured out that in reduced light or darkeness I won't be able to see my firearm. In fact I am traveling in Arizona and at a range here they would not let me shoot in reduced lighting or darkness. How I miss Minnesota. Also my revolver does emit a brilliant flash when I fire it, thus I would be most upset by that in low light if I shall place my orbs on the front sight. Losing my limited vision in such conditions and then making it worse by trying to see a front sight doesn't make much sense to this aging mind. I do very fine without even looking at the gun. Shooters today noticed I fired without looking at the fine Smith & Wesson and asked about it. They were so surprised how well I did, and in fact performed in a manner beyond those trying to use their sights in normal lighting. But I guess that is for another thread. Cheers!!
 
Clip from Indiana newspaper. Read it and weep.
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As police were entering the home, Cabell allegedly shot at police four times with a .380-caliber semiautomatic handgun.
Police returned fire, shooting at least 104 rounds.
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Two cops HIT with four shots by bad guy. One near mouth other in vest. 50% HIT rate.
NOW, cops in DAYLIGHT fire 104 shots and only thing hit is a mailbox by the door. This was with the dept elite SWAT team. I'll bet my last donut they have been to those fancy schools and considered "highly trained." Also the video I got of this shooting shows them dressed to the 9's with the most black velcro "tactical" stuff you will ever see. HUT HUT HUT all over the place. The video looks like the three stooges and the results were within that league. Sorry folks. NO excuse will make this smell good. Of course the dept justified this mess. I think the math says it all. Kevlar...GO HOME!!!!
 
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