weapon lights

[Father Time]

we would make an special effort not to sweep your partner

I should hope so, But most of the time you should all be pulling security and faceing a different direction. Unless your stacking on a door or something. (body armor also brings a certain extra something into the situation as well)



The point I was trying to make is this:
I'm going down that hallway to my family, period. I have to make sure that they aren't being scooped up for some "Elizabeth Smart" scenaro. The only way I can tell for sure who/what is in the hallway or who/what isn't will be the light I bring with me. Flipping on the hallway lightswitch will blind me, and therefore is not an option.

 

[Nanuk]

1: All guns are loaded
2: Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot
3: Never point your gun at something you don't want to shoot
4: Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

Ask your self, do you really want to point your gun at someone you can't identify, such as your child or grand child.

Wouldn't it be better (safer) to use a flashlight so you can keep your pistol pointed in a safe direction?

What he said.

 

[dayman]

This topic seems to come up pretty regularly, and invariably gets all nasty and personal before it's shut down.

Personally, I prefer a hand held light to a weapon mounted one, but I can see how having a hand free could be advantageous. Calling the police, holding a light, and holding a gun would be pretty difficult. But then again, that's what a wife's for.
I'm not entirely sure why anyone wouldn't want to have a light at all. I cary a light even when I don't carry a gun.

As lots of other people have said, having a light doesn't mean you have to run around your house shining it everywhere. It just gives you an option. One that you might decide not to use - much like a gun.

Let's try to stay away from all the personal attacks and show a little decorum though. We're all gun owners/enthusiasts, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how to best defend themselves.

 

[giaquir]

I have a TLR-2 Streamlight on my home
defense weapon,would have it no other way.
I can shine 45deg away from the "bad guy"
and still id with out sweeping him.

 

[JohnKSa]

Yes, she does.
And she also knows that I am armed.
And she doesn't creep in to the house, in the dark, and keep the lights off, and just wait to see if I might find her or not.

Anyone who acts in this manner is insane.

I'm not saying that it's smart to do those things.

I'm saying that those things don't justify shooting someone. You still need to identify the target and establish that the grounds for use of deadly force apply to the situation at hand.

So, the police have a search warrant and have entered my home by force.
Do you recommend pointing a loaded pistol, with a light affixed, at the police?!?!
That will get you killed.

I didn't say that you should point a pistol at them. I said you should identify the target before shooting.

Shooting at the police, whether or not you use a weapon light is unwise and generally illegal.

Yes I can.

I've never met a person who has never made a mistake and who can, with a straight face, claim he never will.

I think that any intelligent person would have good reason to believe that any person committing a home invasion is most likely going to be armed and have evil intentions.

That is true. However, that is NOT the same thing as saying that any person you encounter in your house unexpectedly has evil intentions and deserves to be shot. Especially if you maintain that you don't even need to identify them before shooting.

It doesn't matter how hard anyone tries to justify it or how well they can rationalize in an attempt to make it sound reasonable, shooting without identifying the target is irresponsible.

You may not need a weaponlight to effect the identification, but there does need to be some effective method employed.

 

[peacefulgary]

Obviously you are a genius and vastly superior intellect to all those around completely blow the curve for several decaded of industrial engieering statistical analysis 100% all the time forever and will never ever have a lapse of concentration.

You said that you only have four doors to check.
Really?
You can't remember to check four doors before going to bed???

If you can't remember to check four doors in your own home you probably will not remember to load your pistol, or chamber a round, or change the batteries in your flashlight, or remember where you even placed your flashlight, etc...

When I go to visit my brother, or Mom I yell out I am there, but that doesn't mean that I won't forget that some time or have my mind otherwise occupied when going into their houses.

You actually sometimes forget to announce yourself when you sometimes enter your brother's home???
And your brother is armed???

If I hear a noise in my living room and I go to investigate and I shine my flashlight and see someone trying to unhook my X-box,...

Have you did any low light training in your life???

I am having my doubts.

 

[45_auto]

I can shine 45deg away from the "bad guy"
and still id with out sweeping him.

How do you know where the "bad guy" (or your kid or wife, whichever it may turn out to be) is before you turn on the light?

 

[Father Time]

If you can't remember to check four doors in your own home you probably will not remember to load your pistol, or chamber a round, or change the batteries in your flashlight, or remember where you even placed your flashlight

Dedicated Flashlight and Gun. Gun is always loaded and ready to go all the time. Ready to grab and fight. Flashlights batteries are lithiums good for 10 years. But get checked and changed whenever practice with HD pistol occures.

You actually sometimes forget to announce yourself when you sometimes enter your brother's home???
And your brother is armed???

I do announce myself. But this isn't neccisary because my family knows to ID the threat before fireing (I taught most of them myself). Be sure of your target and what is beyond it comes to mind.


I know you whern't responding to me but these things are non-issues.

 

[Crow Hunter]

You said that you only have four doors to check.
Really?
You can't remember to check four doors before going to bed???

If you can't remember to check four doors in your own home you probably will not remember to load your pistol, or chamber a round, or change the batteries in your flashlight, or remember where you even placed your flashlight, etc...

I check them every night. But I can't guarantee that I will do it 100% of the time forever. Just like I can't guarantee that I won't have a flat tire, that my security system always works, that my power won't be out for a week at a time, etc.

That is why there are layers of defense. Dogs/Security system/3 point locking doors/and finally a firearm. I am looking into motion activated lights, but haven't "pulled the trigger" yet.

I have 2 flashlights, Surefire 6P LED next to my gun, if one is dead, I grab the other. My wife also keeps a Surefire 6P LED light on her side of the bed. There is also a Surefire X300 on my rifle that can be removed and attached to my G19 if I had to. (Well technically I have 3, but one is a windup LED that I use when we are without power for a while to get around the house so as not to waste batteries, not really a combat light)

You actually sometimes forget to announce yourself when you sometimes enter your brother's home???
And your brother is armed???

Yep. Somtimes I am thinking about other things, don't realize he is home, or maybe even talking to my wife as I am opening the door and I just walk in. Most of the time I call and tell him I am coming, same with my Mother to make sure they are there. But I don't always formally announce that I am there like I am asking permission to board a ship. Of course, my family has a tradition of following the 4 rules of firearm safety and not blasting shapes they haven't identified 1st....

Have you did any low light training in your life???

I am having my doubts.

Same about you. What low light training method advocates shooting in the dark without flashlights and without 100% identification of a target?

But yes. I have had training. I periodically do "continuing education" by doing night shoots with both sidearms and long arms. I also run through "drills" in my house with myself and my wife of what we would do in different situations. There is a specific plan. There have even been a couple of instances over the years in which the noise investigation plan has been in effect.

Exactly how do you investigate noises in your home?

 

[Father Time]

How do you know where the "bad guy" (or your kid or wife, whichever it may turn out to be) is before you turn on the light?

I can't anwser for giaquer but in my house there is enough ambiant light to make out a person. However you cannot tell who it is so a light is needed to tell family from foe.
I have a TLR-1 on my gun and a small handheld so I have both options. But I usually just grab the gun, shove a extra mag in the wastband of my PJ's and go.

 

[peacefulgary]

I check them every night. But I can't guarantee that I will do it 100% of the time forever. Just like I can't guarantee that I won't have a flat tire, that my security system always works, that my power won't be out for a week at a time, etc.

A flat tire, power outage, failed security system....those are all out of your control.
But locking your doors at night is something that is 100% within your control, every single time, from now until you can no longer make it to the door.
It's just like knowing for certain where you placed your pistol, and whether it is loaded or not, and whether you chambered a round or not.
You don't forget that do you?


You family must live in an extremely peaceful and safe location to keep the doors unlocked and not be bothered whenever a family member just lets themselves in unannounced.
Some of us live in a much more dangerous world.

What low light training method advocates shooting in the dark without flashlights and without 100% identification of a target?

The U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Air Force, and every other military around the globe.

Very very seldom did we use lights, and sometimes we had NVG's, but the vast majority of the time we did not.
Using a light at night is a good way to get shot by your adversary.

 

[Crow Hunter]

A flat tire, power outage, failed security system....those are all out of your control.
But locking your doors at night is something that is 100% within your control, every single time, from now until you can no longer make it to the door.
It's just like knowing for certain where you placed your pistol, and whether it is loaded or not, and whether you chambered a round or not.
You don't forget that do you?


You family must live in an extremely peaceful and safe location to keep the doors unlocked and not be bothered whenever a family member just lets themselves in unannounced.
Some of us live in a much more dangerous world.

I go into and out of my doors, locking and unlocking them WAY more often than I remove my bedside handgun from its normal resting position and load/unload it. That significantly increases the statistical chance that I will forget/miss something. Or go out of one and not remember to lock it back because we don't normally use the front or back doors and sometimes I forget to check them.

I have my own keys to my families houses, so even if they are locked, I can get in without having to break down the door. Like if they aren't answering the phone for some reason.

The U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Air Force, and every other military around the globe.

Very very seldom did we use lights, and sometimes we had NVG's, but the vast majority of the time we did not.
Using a light at night is a good way to get shot by your adversary.

You are comparing US Military night operation training to home defense?

No wonder....

ETA: I don't mean to say that US Military Low Light/No Light training is inferior, but they have a completely different mindset and ROE's vs a home owner.

 

[allaroundhunter]

The U.S. Army, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Air Force, and every other military around the globe.

Very very seldom did we use lights, and sometimes we had NVG's, but the vast majority of the time we did not.
Using a light at night is a good way to get shot by your adversary.

Weapon mounted lights are becoming very common in the military.... A friend recently returned from a deployment in Iraq where his role was conducting routine urban patrols and searching buildings.... Every member of his squad had a light on his M4, and they were used almost every single time that his squad cleared a building.


With all of the problems with soldiers supposedly shooting civilians, saying that the military promotes firing without a good identification of the target is false.

 

[peacefulgary]

I can still hear Drill Sgt. Perez:

"Go on night patrol....turn on your light....get your whole squad killed.
Light discipline saves lives."


The same is true in home defense.
Using a flashlight only makes you a better target.

If you wake in the middle of the night, your night vision is already at its peak.
Using a light will only ruin your night vision.
And unless you live in a submarine or a coal mine, I promise you, your house is probably not near as dark as you think it is.

 

[allaroundhunter]

"Go on night patrol....turn on your light....get you whole squad killed.
Light discipline saves lives."

Night patrol does not correlate to home defense. Soldiers are issued weapon mounted lights so that they can clear a house effectively, and ID their target before engaging.

Yes, shining it while you are walking the streets of a hostile city is a very bad idea, but inside the house that you are clearing, it is the only option because there is not as much ambient light.

Light discipline does save lives. It allows you to ID a threat and neutralize it, thereby saving yourself; and it allows you to ID a non-threat and thereby save its life by not engaging it.

 

[JohnKSa]

I can still hear Drill Sgt. Perez:

"Go on night patrol....turn on your light....get you whole squad killed.
Light discipline saves lives."

Military tactics, for a variety of reasons, are not always directly applicable to civilian deadly force scenarios.

Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that there are viable situations in the military where one might shoot without identifying a target as a certain threat, that kind of thing is not acceptable in civilian self-defense.

Drill Sgt. Perez won't be there to provide legal counsel nor to serve your sentence.

 

[peacefulgary]

When it comes to a home invasion, I'll take my chances with my training rather than the fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process.

 

[Crow Hunter]

rather than the fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process.

Apparently these instructors are really named Grimm....

There are lots of others who do low light training, all of them REQUIRE a light as part of the training.

Good luck man.

http://eagtactical.com/coursedetails.asp?ListID=9

Course Description
Pistol 2 is a fighting class. It builds on the previous skill sets, with the emphasis on rapid, multiple hits on single and multiple targets, shooting on the move and strong hand / weak hand unsupported shooting. It will include a lowlight shoot on TD1.
A previous Pistol 1 or equivalent class is mandatory.


Equipment


A serviceable pistol revolver, .38 Special / 9x19mm or larger
5 magazines / speed loaders
750 rounds of serviceable ammunition

A strong side hip holster. Inside the waistband holsters, shoulder holsters and fanny bags are not permitted
A magazine pouch to hold at least two magazines
Serviceable flashlight with spare batteries and bulbsEye and ear pro
Baseball type hat
Sunscreen
Clothing appropriate for the season
Full payment is requested 30 days prior to the class date, unless other arrangements have been made


In accordance with International Traffic in Arms (ITAR) Regulations, only U.S. Citizens will be accepted to participate in E.A.G. Tactical courses.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/courses.html

Handgun Course Equipment:
Clients should have eye (for day and dark) and ear protection. A good holster, belt and magazine carrier, which is properly threaded thru belt loops on your trousers or pants. Knee and elbow protection are a good idea. Two flashlights and spare batteries. A spare handgun is a good idea but not mandatory. Six to eight speed loaders or magazines. A hat, neck scarf and sun screen. A small bag to carry all your stuff in is handy. Clothing for seasonal weather at 5000 to 6000 foot elevation.

 

[Father Time]

fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcrysTdKKc

I don't know what your training is. And I haven't meet you. So forgive me if I feel more inclined to listen to the advice of Larry Vickers over yours.



As for military training. Well the military has a funny way of being "all or nothing" when it comes to idea's, equipment and training. Its mainly because the people in charge don't give the average troop much credit in the common sense area.

Like how they banned Polymer mags (to eleminate soldiers from useing less than reliabe tapco's and such) but it also banned P-Mags one of the best magazine's for the AR platforme around.

 

[FAS1]

I always have a flashlight handy, but don't use any weapons mounted lights myself. I know more and more people do. About 30% of my sales are for that market and it's been growing about 10% a year from my personal experience.

I'm comfortable with my decision, but one day I might just have to update my G17 (Gen2) to one with a rail.