Was the Revolution Necessary?

[applesanity]

If you want to gain appreciation for the American revolution, I would suggest you go spend an hour in England. That's about all it took for me.

Irrelevant. England now is not England of 200+ years ago.

 

[Wildalaska]

So , we have what the Founders SAID was their motivation, and we have what they DID, and they match like key to lock.

if you think that, you dont understand the concept of money and power....you, like others here, take those two words and try either in your own head, or by rhetoric, make them out to be venal...

Just I may add, like the lefties....

Money and power are not dirty words. No one is casting the leaders of the American revolution as bloodsucking Snidely Whiplashes with their hobnailed boots on the throats of the terrified masses (unless they were black or natives), rather (speaking for myself), those of us who understand how the world works recognize that ideals are not necessarily motivations. The motivation in the American revolution was ECONOMIC indepedence, which necessitated the the EXCERSIZE of independent POWER.

Furthermore:

Moreover, when several had elected power in the new government, none kept it beyond the time alloted; none began a coup, started a putsch, or did the normal for power and wealth-driven individuals.

You are confusing self aggrandizement with excersize of power. Self restraint in excersizing power is EFFECTIVE power. Regardless, we aren't talking about individual power we are talking about a collective power...

Gimme a break now guys, this isn't lefty la la land where folks are altruistic and pay homage to the glories of kumbaya. This is a story of a bunch of wealthy landowners, slaveholders, merchants, lawyers, soldiers, explorers and intellectuals who wanted to accumulate wealth and property in a new and vast land and had the brains to construct a modified system that gave them the power to do so. They lucked out too.

And with apologies to our friends across the pond, if the British government hadnt frightfully mishandled us Colonists when we started bitchin about money, today, we would all be drinking warm beer, shouting "hear, hear" and watching Man U.

WildletsgetrealAlaska

 

[huchahuchax]

Irrelevant. England now is not England of 200+ years ago.

You are correct. After losing the revolution, the people of England did a total overhaul of their country. For instance, they did away with the monarchy and they don't tax anything anymore.

 

[Wildalaska]

For instance, they did away with the monarchy and they don't tax anything anymore.

Ya mean the Queen is a fake?

WildaskeltonjohnandthebeatlesabouttaxesAlaska

 

[ConfuseUs]

King George was busy raising taxes on EVERYTHING to pay for the French and Indian War so the economic angle definitely fits. And at the time the Colonies were the Crown's best assets. However, in order to collect additional tax revenue a government simply has to resort to more and more unpleasant methods to collect it. So that's what King George did. The reasons for the Revolutionary War are all spelled out in the Declaration of Independence.

It was not all about money, it was about being repressed and abused in order to pay exorbitant taxes that the colonists had no say in the levying thereof. The colonists also could not afford to pay many of the taxes on essential items as well. So they started radical anti-tax organizations such as the Sons of Liberty (the original militia movement ).

It may have started as a money issue but the way the English treated the colonists in their quest for tax revenues made the Revolution a necessity. It quickly became a political, economic, and personal issue for many of the Patriots and there was no way for them to resolve it without resorting to armed conflict and breaking away from the British Empire or dying in the attempt.

Oh, and don't forget that if the French hadn't given us so much military aid in the form of troops, arms, and supplies we might not have succeeded. (Even if it was just Le Roi sticking his finger in King George's eye.) Viva la France!

 

[applesanity]

Washington himself suffered so much physical deprivation and suffering and psychological anguish during the war, it is likely a desire for more wealth in an already enormously wealthy man was not his motivation. Power-driven people don't go thru winters in tents living with hundreds of starving men,

Wow, almost missed this piece of hype. Surprise! Nobody - and by "nobody," I mean nada, zilcho, zip - starved or froze to death at Valley Forge. Say what? It was all Washington's doing. Continue to send bad news to the Continental Congress, and they won't make you march in the winter. And they'll send you more rations and supplies. The same goes for a lot of other overblown stories of ragged colonialists hobbling around in bloody rags for shoes. Don't be ashamed. Accept it. Embrace it. Washington was being practical.

while close by hover thousands who may at any time put a bullet in their heads. They get someone ELSE to do that.

Surprise again! War tactics change over time - with a strong relationship to advancements in technology. Ol Georgy didn't have to worry about any lone gunmen with a bolt action up in some book depository. And he sure as hell didn't have the luxury of a radio transmitter, in order to bark commands at a comfortable distance.

 

[tegemu]

I have always boiled it down to, the revolution started as a desire to be guaranteed the rights of Englishmen. The Independance concept came later. As to plagarism, at the time plagarism was an accepted technique and considered flattery

 

[Waitone]

So when do we get to the Masonic conspiracy to create the US? So far we've got money, power, greed, and a dash of principal. Conspiracy, I want conspiracy to be recognized as a valid reason for America's existence.

 

[applesanity]

As to plagarism, at the time plagarism was an accepted technique and considered flattery

Irrelevant to the point of argument.

So when do we get to the Masonic conspiracy to create the US?

Novus Ordo Seclorum, baby. You know many of the founders were Masons, right? There's even a famous painting of GW all decked in regalia. At the temple in Alexandria, VA, they have endless paintings and statues to that guy.

So what? What is your point?

Why is the real world so uncomfortable for some of you? Did Lynn Cheney get to you first?

 

[Waitone]

12

 

[The Tourist]

I have a theory on this, myself.

I personally do not understand why a person would leave his home country, where he lives under duress, but then seek to re-make the same country here. Consider places like Little Saigon, Chinatown or the barrios in California.

You would think that these people would be tickled to death to get out from under.

I feel that same concept working positively here. No matter what the constraint, it was a 'British constraint.' In comparison to amount of tea we pitched overboard, we were making untold gallons of liquor. We smuggled more goods than recorded and even hired the pirates under Letters or Marque.

I do not believe many Americans read The Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf. Yet, we went to war.

In the simplest form, outsiders were attempting to restrict events that did not concern them. Ask a guy in Wyoming how he feels about a senator in an eastern seaboard state trying to pass gun control legislation.

 

[applesanity]

Applesanity, your arrogance is breathtaking.

1. Why, thank you.
2. You still have yet to provide a rebuttal, or even any substantiation for your own claims.
3. wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

If anything, I find that stepping off that high and noble horse, and realizing that your country was founded by humans, with human wants and human needs, is quite a humbling experience.

P.S. George Washington was still a full-blown Mason.

 

[gc70]

Washington himself suffered so much physical deprivation and suffering and psychological anguish during the war, it is likely a desire for more wealth in an already enormously wealthy man was not his motivation. Power-driven people don't go thru winters in tents living with hundreds of starving men, while close by hover thousands who may at any time put a bullet in their heads.

Washington, at least, did not go through winters in tents.

General Washington's Headquarters, Valley Forge, PA: This is the building that General Washington used as his headquarters during the winter of 1777-1778 while the continental army was encamped at Valley Forge.

General Washington's Headquarters, Middlebrook, NJ: The Wallace House served as Gen. Washington's headquarters from December 1778 to June 1779, when the Continental Army was stationed at Camp Middlebrook.

General Washington's Headquarters, Morristown, NJ: From December 1, 1779, to June 23, 1780, during the second Morristown encampment, General Washington lived and made his headquarters in the Ford Mansion.

 

[applesanity]

This is the building that General Washington used ... at Valley Forge.

Precisely! See also post #46.

 

[CanoeCrasher]

Fuel on the Fire

I know this was a page back, but SteelCore in post #21 pasted in the list of what happened to the signers. It seems many of the worst stories on that list may be more fiction than fact. I trust snopes more than I trust chain-emails.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

I'm not picking a side, just adding information. Have fun, and happy (day after) Forth of July!

CC

 

[Doug.38PR]

Nice old style homes. The privilege of Command. Of course the modern egalitarian fool will cry and whine moan from his highhorse as though washington should have not stayed in those homes and should have pitched his own tent with his men and froze to death and figured out plans for the spring and write letters to the Continental Congress with frostbite fingers and frozen toes.

Incidentally, the men probably did not sleep in tents alone:

Cabintents could be made for better warmth.

Here are some nice portraits of VF

 

[Doug.38PR]

More good ones

 

[targetshootr]

The military keeps us safe from foreign aggression, but with all due respect to the troops, they do NOT protect our freedom;

That statement didn't get much notice but it cuts to the chase. While it's great to be patriotic, when it's given as a reason to die it leaves a queasy feeling since recent facts prove otherwise. On the other hand, maybe it's the best way to put lipstick on a pig.

 

[applesanity]

It seems many of the worst stories on that list may be more fiction than fact.

Irrelevant either way. What happened to the signers after the war cannot be used to backtrack to what they were thinking before the war. There's a term for the fallacy of arguing premises from a "conclusion" - as in, going in reverse... help me out here, someone.

should have pitched his own tent with his men and froze to death [...] with frostbite fingers and frozen toes.

Again, nobody *starved* or *froze to death* at Valley Forge.

 

[Doug.38PR]

^
I wouldn't say "nobody" did. I think an estimated 2000-2500 did die from starvation or disease, but I was exaggerating to make a point. The point is, it was a HARSH winter. It wasn't a picnic in the park.

"We have this day no less than 2,873 men in camp, unfit for duty because they are barefooted and otherwise naked."

Gen. Geo. Washington

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_Forge
http://www.americanrevwar.homestead.com/files/VALLEY.HTM


As has been said for decades if not the past two centuries by, they risked their lives, their fortunes and sacred honor.
Even liberal cyincs whine about how "they were all RICH white males." They had everything to gain or keep by NOT going to war, and much to lose by resisting England. And many of them lost everything.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/honor.html