Was the Revolution Necessary?

The American Revolution wasn't strictly necessary -- after all, anyone can choose to swallow his pride and continue to live as a slave, tolerating whatever the government throws at him. But unlike most people in modern times, the Founders of this country had enough self-respect to fight back.

I can't remember where I found this, but it's probably worth posting here:

The 56 men

Please take the time to think about this on the 4th of July.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.
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So they made these great sacrifices to leave us a free country founded on a Bill of Rights. And what's become of it? Let's see...

--We have the NFA of '34, the GCA of '68, the GOPA of '86, etc., plus entire states where the Second Amendment doesn't apply at all.

--We have civil forfeiture laws in some areas that allow the police to confiscate large amounts of cash without trial or conviction.

--Warrantless wiretapping and domestic surveillance.

--A government that lies to its own population about just about everything, even to the point of outright conspiracy that would be dismissed as "tinfoil hat" if it weren't known fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

--We have random checkpoints, since security trumps freedom and the Bill of Rights in a country founded on "Liberty or Death."

--We have Republicans wanting to outlaw some kinds of political expression (flag burning) and Democrats wanting to outlaw other kinds ("hate speech"). "Free speech" means anything that doesn't touch someone's sacred cow. The First Amendment has been replaced with the "right" not to have your feelings hurt.

--You can damage your health in some ways (excess drinking, smoking cigarettes, overeating, lack of exercise) but not in others (illegal drugs) because the government owns your body and decides what you'll put into it.

Sure, we still enjoy a lot of freedoms that are lacking in other countries. This is still one of the freest countries to live in. That's all the more reason why freedom has to be so carefully guarded here. If freedom dies in America, it will likely die everywhere.

I think somewhere down the line, Americans lost sight of the fact that the ONLY danger to American freedom is American government. ONLY our own government infringes on our freedom by passing and enforcing unnecessary laws. The military keeps us safe from foreign aggression, but with all due respect to the troops, they do NOT protect our freedom; they obey the government, pure and simple. Defending American freedom is up to the individual citizens.

Is a second American Revolution ever going to become necessary? Hopefully not. But if it does, then I wonder whether enough Americans will have the same courage that our Founders had: the willingness to sacrifice everything for the cause.
 
GREAT post SteelCore. Right on point.

Anyone feeling the embarrassment of posting ignorance as fact yet?

Power and money eh...

Still Googling WA, JustMe, gvf, applesanity?

I'm still waiting for that list of reading material I was offered supporting a 'Money and Power' premise. Unless it was meant to be the money kept from the lesser taxes paid to the English or the power of self government.

That sacred honor thing. Not so guarded as it used to be. I'd be willing to bet it is tossed faster than an uninformed flame against one's own Country. Honor. A concept lost to political discourse.
 
Geez and now they are on the flag waving LOL

Wood, Gordon: The Radicalism of the American revolution

Holton, Woody: Forced Founders: Indians, Debtors, Slaves, and the Making of the American Revolution in Virginia

Gordon, John An Empire of wealth

Gould & Onuff,
Empire and Nation: The American Revolution in the Atlantic World

WildthatshouldkeepyabusyAlaska

Hey Bruxley lighten up, just because critical thinkers dont share in your idyllic view of the American revolution, shouldnt get ya all worked up...
 
But if it does, then I wonder whether enough Americans will have the same courage that our Founders had: the willingness to sacrifice everything for the cause.
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If there is enough money in it:p

WildprosperousfolksdontrevoltAlaska
 
WA....a few points for the 'critical thinker' as I am more of fact guy. Sorry for the boredom of it...

1) Your reading list was not supportive of your 'wealth and power premise...
2) was not written during that time, from the library of congress or from the voluminous writing of the founders or DOI signers.
3) Telling an American to relax after inaccurately misrepresenting their history is telling of the credibility of their point. May as well say 'Hey....stop holding me to my statments....no fair man....I happen to believe what I said so it's true'

And lastly. Honorable men simply say they're wrong. They don't Google a list of 200+ years post event writings and somehow expect them to trump the documents of the day.

The Declaration of Independence is BS? C'MON.
They knew they would loss it all....and they did.
REALLY BAD money / power grab.

Admit it already. It was principle, not power/money.
If you can't then you can't. But it's the ACTUAL history of this great nation.
A nation others around the world have been reshaping themselves to resemble and people around the world have been flocking to since it's inception.

PLEASE SEE SIGNATURE
Who said it?.......A man with status about to loss it and knowing it.
 
Sigh...OK I'll play..

Here are the obvious ones, that is the ones we dont have to cite the specific historical facts that surround the highfalutin language

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
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Power

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that
purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing
to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the
conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
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Money

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
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Money

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
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Money and Power

Dont quite understand why that bothers you? Ya think the "founders" were saints?



WildhappyfourthAlaska
 
What the hell. WA WA WA.

If wrong is what you insist on and lack the ability to say it then cool. IGNORE th whole document. Cut and paste it to say what you like there. I'm sure the 7 whole lines you quoted were the MAIN trust there. The rest was just 'high falutin' talk.

Another quote for ya:
Stubbornly wrong doesn't make validity and introverted behavior while intoxicated doesn't make deep thinking. These are symptoms not attributes.

Did you do anything toward addressing the points?.....NO....That's OK....Pseudo brilliance is enough. No need to to validate.

OH...I read 2 of em'. Radicalism back in 95' and Empire and Nation just last winter. Radicalism was very good but in no way makes your money/power point. Empire and Nation was about ENGLAND mostly and the impact on them.
REALLY bad/odd choice of books. Credibility would have selected documents of the time but hell with that. I understand....your bound to the premise now....you can't go back now.

Believe it or not, and I sense a deep cynicism so it's probably a not, but true character and principle driven sacrifice really does exist. Nothing so shallow as greed or lust for power can generate such a flow of writings that the founders and signers of the day made. And no such motivations survive long after their clear demise. Power grabs stop when there is no power to grab and greedy motivations fade quickly after poverty threatens to win the day.

Again....please read the signature what is it's historical context.
 
Wealth and power?

Were the Founders men of principle? Some undoubtedly were.

Samuel Adams was a true believer in freedom and the early voice for independence. "He was an excellent politician, an unsuccessful brewer, and a poor businessman." Luckily, Adams had a rich benefactor - John Hancock. "Sam Adams writes the letters [to newspapers] and John Hancock pays the postage." (Fradin & McCurdy, 2002)

Were some of the Founders interested in wealth and power? It would be naive to think otherwise.

John Hancock was wealthy. "In 1763, his uncle died and John Hancock inherited what was said to be the greatest body of wealth in New England." The British taxes we have all heard about cut into Hancock's shipping business, to the extent that he embraced smuggling. "In 1768 his sloop Liberty was impounded by customs officials at Boston Harbor, on a charge of running contraband goods." "He played an instrumental role, sometimes by accident, and other times by design, in coaxing the American Revolution into being." Was Hancock an altruist whose only interest was in liberty and freedom? Possibly. It may have only been a coincidence that he had a massive financial interest in independence.

Samuel Chase was an ardent proponent of independence. "Chase represented Maryland at the Continental Congress, and was re-elected in 1775, serving until 1778. His involvement in an attempt to corner the flour market, using insider information gained through his position in the congress, resulted in his not being returned to the Continental Congress and damaging his reputation."
 
If an insurrection is successful, it is called a revolution; if the insurrection fails then it is called rebellion. The winners get to write the history.

Even though my ancestors were on the losing end of the Revolutionary War (Loyalists) and the Civil War, I am still proud to be an American. While I do not deify our founding fathers, one cannot help but be impressed with their courage and conviction. But lest we forget, had they failed in their endeavor, history would have deemed them traitors.

Another contributing factor in the conflict was the fact that King George III was not well. He was afflicted with porphyria, a maddening disease which disrupted his reign as early as 1765. Several attacks strained his grip on reality and debilitated him in the last years of his reign. As I would assume this would have been kept secret at the time, I expect his actions would have had an agitating affect on the English colonists.

Rule Britannia
a song by Thomas Augustine Arne, 1740:

When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

The nations not so blest as thee,
Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

Still mor majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame,
All their attempts to bend thee down
Will but arouse thy generous flame;
But work their woe, and thy renown.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

To thee belongs the rural reign;
They cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

The Muses, still with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crowned,
And manly hearts to juide the fair.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.

HAPPY 231st AND GOD BLESS AMERICA! :)
 
You can't win Wildalaska. The myth of noble beginnings have taken over so much.

The most telling quote in the whole thread so far to me is actually this one.

I still think it was one of - if not the only - Revolution of an Idea, Liberty; Not to say other causes weren't there. It makes it seem more noble
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Very noble indeed, but I maybe a bit of a pessimist, that while some will have done it for the cause, mostly its about taxes and control of local trade, wealth and power. Every civil war has been fought for the same reason, no matter howmuch they dress it up in the decades that follow in noble intentions and hero worship.

The British were their worse own enemy and used heavy tactics. The shock and awe of its time and that just caused more rebelions. Just because they ended up mostly bankcrupt by the revolution doesn't mean anything. People overestimate their ability and if not for the French bailing them out and the costs the revolution would have eventually fizzled out. In the end though they made it economically not worth continueing the war and the conflict finished, until Madsen being a burk as he was, was convinced to invade Canada.
 
Suggestion to Bruxley:
150px-

Please don't feed the troll.;)
 
Happy Birthday, American Republic !!! I can see through the rough seas of political hellraising, hatred of 50% against 50% (it isn't really that bad) and wars and rumors of wars. Thank God I am an American !!!!!
 
Gee Doug, you can call me a troll directly if you think you can justify it :)

After YOU have read the books on the list :cool:

WildyourenotasceeredareyaAlaska
 
REALLY bad/odd choice of books. Credibility would have selected documents of the time but hell with that. I understand....your bound to the premise now....you can't go back now.
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Bad choice?...why, because you havent really read them?

Selected documents of the time:

Stamp Act.
Navigation Act.
Townsend Acts.

Go read those :)


Hey didnt Ben franklin schlep himslef over to London in 1766 to argue over the repeal of the Stamp Act?

O well, no sense setting out more, as limey fellow says, the myth has taken over reality.


WildletemreinventhistoryAlaska
 
Like WildAlaska, I think money had a lot to do with it.

The Treaty of Paris in 1763 not only removed the French from east of the Mississippi, it determined the boundry line which no colonist could cross as that land was reserved for the Indians. The British maintained Army elements in America to enforce the treaty. Of course this cost money. Furthermore, the French & Indian War (Seven Years War) cost a lot of ducats for which the Colonists were the principal beneficiaries. Why not make them start paying for that war as well as the peace keeping force? Stamp Act, Tea Tax, it's all revenue generation.

Let's move onto the pursuit of happiness. Pursuit of happiness didn't mean hanging around your buddies at the tavern on Friday nights. It meant the means (so I'm told) to get money accumulate wealth. What's the easiest way to become wealthy? Why, land! The more land, the wealthier you are. You merely went out and tomahawked your initials onto the trunk of a tree and the land was yours (dubbed in the period as tomahawk improvement). Of course you had to get papers later, but that was first dibs. Well, there's one problem with tomahawk improvement. First, the land you were improving was at the expense of the Red Man. They tend to dislike the trespassers and didn't mind killing one now and then. Of course the land speculator could save his own scalp by hiring a man of lesser means to act as his agent and venture into the wilderness to make tomahawk improvements. Not a bad deal, is it? Another hazard were these uniformedly red clothed guys called The King's Soldiers who were to see that you couldn't cross that boundry line. The British Army stood in the way of American ambition for more land (and wealth). Of course, the army was never big enough to prevent the settlers from sneaking by and there were plenty of them who did penetrate into the Ohio country.

Upset at this arrangement, land speculators (and I believe Washington was among them), started tiring of British authority that kept them from the pursuit of happiness.

Of course, like today, there's professional agitators back then. We called them Sons of Liberty but if you study their tactics, they were Sons o' B***** and terrorists by modern standards. Professional agitators like silversmith turned propagandist P. Revere played up the "Boston Massacre" for all it was worth. Heck, a jury of Bostonians acquitted the soldiers of wrong doing. Who wouldn't fire back when being pelted with sticks and stones? It's called self-defense.

Anyway, the mess comes together when a nervous general sends a foraging party out to collect some powder. Opps! Should have sought flour powder (not flower power) instead. Wrong move. Faster than Uncle Ben's Minute Rice, men assemble at Lexington for a gun show. Who knows who fired the first shot? Negligent discharge maybe? Anyhow, the war of words becomes a war of bullets. Time passes and as the fighting continues, the government offers the Rebels seats in Parliament and other assurances that were asked for earlier. The Rebels realize that representation meant nothing since they would be out-voted every time anyhow and the fighting continues.

Enough rambling.

My vote is on the money.
 
From MY previous post....
I'm still waiting for that list of reading material I was offered supporting a 'Money and Power' premise. Unless it was meant to be the money kept from the lesser taxes paid to the English or the power of self government.

That sacred honor thing. Not so guarded as it used to be. I'd be willing to bet it is tossed faster than an uninformed flame against one's own Country. Honor. A concept lost to political discourse.
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Next crap shoot attempt please..............
 
Apparently we got ourselves a few Lynn Cheneys here. Seriously, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Accept it. Embrace it. We rock. America kicks a$$. Bruxley, you do realize that our national anthem is sung to the tune of drinking song, right? Are you getting the point yet?

This matter is not some kooky liberal revisionism. It's reality. The vast majority of wars - our revolution included - are about money and power. Trying to affix your version of moral right and wrong is a fallicious excercise. It's about what works - and what doesn't.

Ideals are great and all. But you cannot plunge an entire country/ a bunch of colonies into war, if there are no financiers. You can't pay your troops with a bagful of philosophy textbooks, or even with "Monopoly" money. And the financiers wanna come out in the black. Lofty ideals cannot bankroll a war. It's reality. Accept it. Embrace it.

Next, you'll tell me that the Civil War was really about freeing the slaves.

Or that the French helped us out because they believed in our "cause."

The colonists couldn't trade rum and molasses with the Spanish.
The colonists couldn't expand west of the Appalacians.
The colonists couldn't kill Indians willy nilly.
The colonists couldn't realize higher profit margins because of taxes.
The colonists couldn't savor the sweet satisfaction of home rule.

This from someone that has a hammer and sickle as a logo for adding him to your homepage on his website.
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Wow, you fell for it? I never thought anyone would ever, but you managed! Geez man, it's called *satire.* I even mentioned the point of the *satire* in the FAQ section. My NSFW website is full of anti hippie, anti tree hugger, anti pinko commie stuff. I'd post you the direct links, but they're not kosher on TFL.

Additionally, attacking the messenger is never a good way to win an argument.

What the hell. WA WA WA.
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Actually, you're the one who's thowing the hissy fit. It's okay. Relax. Some of us are entirely comfortable with how the world works.

Cut and paste it to say what you like there. I'm sure the 7 whole lines you quoted were the MAIN trust there. The rest was just 'high falutin' talk.
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Again - chill out, dude.

Pseudo brilliance is enough. No need to to validate.
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Maybe you should listen to your own sarcasm.

I sense a deep cynicism so it's probably a not, but true character and principle driven sacrifice really does exist.
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Irrelevant. Good people exist. The founding fathers were most likely good people. So what. Being a good person does not mean you gotta forsake money and power.

Nothing so shallow as greed or lust for power can generate such a flow of writings that the founders and signers of the day made.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric And uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but large chunks of that document border on plagiarism, if not outrightly so.

And no such motivations survive long after their clear demise. Power grabs stop when there is no power to grab and greedy motivations fade quickly after poverty threatens to win the day.
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That.... that just doesn't make sense.

The premise for the majority of your arguments is that you love America - a spotless, morally upstanding, sparkling metropolis on a mountain that's too good for worldly wants and needs, and apparently, I'm a filthy commie. Well comrade Bruxley,

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"
-Samuel Johnson
 
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I Started The Thread So:

my question at the start contains my opinion of the Revolution's abstract motivator: The Idea of Liberty. I wondered if this was the main motivator, and the events and conditions secondary. That was all. I have no doubt their abstract ideals were what the Founders said they were.

However, Money and Power arguments have taken over:

You can impute motivations to people if you like, you can do it as your personal fantasy that is contrary to what their words say if you wish as well. So, if you like to believe the Founders were motivated by Power and Money, go ahead.

But if you want to know more in an objective way, just look at their actions, especially those after they got what they wanted, (i.e., after they won): As someone said, few of the Signers had exactly merry lives after the Declaration. And they had full knowledge all that befell them was a real possibility when they signed. They did it anyway. More, they created a government that LIMITED and DIFFUSED power. It gave none to them. Very strange actions for power-driven men.

Moreover, when several had elected power in the new government, none kept it beyond the time alloted; none began a coup, started a putsch, or did the normal for power and wealth-driven individuals.

Washington, for example, could have been a King, but relinquished the office of President with grace and humility.

Washington himself suffered so much physical deprivation and suffering and psychological anguish during the war, it is likely a desire for more wealth in an already enormously wealthy man was not his motivation. Power-driven people don't go thru winters in tents living with hundreds of starving men, while close by hover thousands who may at any time put a bullet in their heads. They get someone ELSE to do that. (Did Hitler and Stalin hang out with their "boys" during the siege of Leningrad? Weren't real close by were they....)

So , we have what the Founders SAID was their motivation, and we have what they DID, and they match like key to lock.

Sooner or later, as Freud said "A cigar is a cigar"
 
If you want to gain appreciation for the American revolution, I would suggest you go spend an hour in England. That's about all it took for me.
I'm not trying to bash the UK, I'm just saying that once you have been there it is easy to imagine how the forefathers decided they didn't want to play by the King's rules anymore.
 
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