War Surgery Experiences

You render aid to the enemy because, aside from the various laws and conventions of war, it is the right thing to do.
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+1 there. After WW2 the pres got 2 trillion for the re building of Eastern Europe, we also helped re build Japan. A war we didnt even wish to be a part of.

My Uncle was wounded in Nam, he had many scars, was all shot up, same as my God Father. Glad they had great medical help or they would not have made it.

Would I double tap? No, I have no desire to kill someone, and if I ever had to shoot someone I would hope they would not die. It would be better to help a person than to kill a person.

My cousin is a cop here or was he retired. Never pulled his gun in duty, he did however talk a few guys out of their gun. Ask any cop in Omaha, they know his name. He is very well respected, uses his head not his brawn.
 
American soldiers render aid to thier enemies, it's what seperates us from everybody else, especially our enemies.
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mmkay.

And I believe, and so did General Petraeus, that when you render aid to a fallen Taliban fighter, you are showing why we are different than the Russians or the English, and therefor contributing greatly to the eventual succes in Afghanistan.
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I don't think your message is getting through. The atrocities committed seem to outshine providing medical aid.
 
A bit off topic but they call us combat vets heroes. I don't feel like a hero but combat medics and surgeons are then a heroes' heroes, superheroes if you will. I've seen medics run into a fight without a regard for their own safety to aid a downed warrior. Without the surgeons I would have a few less buddies for sure.

Thanks for the work you folks do and Godspeed.
 
So my point is, a bullet hurts no matter the caliber, and when people get caught up on calibers and forget that even a .22 to the chest center mass can kill, then you might be developing a false sense of confidence that your caliber big iron will absolutely drop someone when you pull the trigger
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I like your post and agree with most of it, but I don't think anybody believes that a .22 to the chest can't kill, and no one I know chooses a SD weapon just because, under the right circumstances, it MAY do so.

If Bubba dies a day later, one hour, or one minute after he's shot me, after I shot him first, then that's little consolation. I'm not concerned so much with whether he dies---more so that he's stopped from hurting me.

Choosing a caliber/bullet combination that has been shown to work consistently well on the street doesn't give me a false sense of confidence, since, as you mentioned, nothing is a sure thing. And the best weapon/ammo doesn't give me a false sense of confidence. Just lot more. :D

Yes, I have to do my part--we all do. There are no Talismans.:cool:
 
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"eventual succes in Afghanistan"

SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.
 
OEF-Vet- I'll echo you 100%.

TheRoadWarrior- I can understand that, I ceertainly can, but I just look back on what I did there, what my guys did there, whay my friends did there, and think it was all for naught.
 
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.
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You sit in the same place as many in your profession before you. What you experience in an emergency medical environment takes place whether your side is winning or not--including your fatalistic out take on things.
 
Combat Medics going into firefights not to take lives but to save lives knowing full well that the enemy will be trying to kill them and the Soldier on the ground they are trying to save. Doctors and Nurses where the Soldiers are Medivaced to, all day every day for their Tour of Duty working in blood and gore on Men in agony and horrible pain, some they will save and give them joy and hope, some will die…As an ex Combat Soldier I do not know if I could take that every day, Thank God there are Brave Men and Women in the Medical Field who can.

As far as the Mission goes, you have no idea of how Proud we are of all of you and how Thankful we are to all of you. Winning the Hearts and Minds is tough when you invade a country like Viet Nam or Iraq or Afghanistan, totally different people and culture, expected to welcome us with open arms and accept our culture while the enemy is of their own people and is willing to kill them if they do not support them. Yet we did win Hearts and Minds in Nam and I am sure in Iraq and Afghanistan, I knew when we pulled out American Air Support and Artillery that it was just a matter of time in Nam before the government fell. It broke my heart in 1975 when Saigon fell and I saw thousands of Vietnamese trying to get through the gate and fence at the US Embassy and on the helicopters. And then the Boat People from Viet Nam and the treatment of the Vietnamese and Laotians and Cambodians we had left behind. Over 58000 Men gone, the real Heroes who never came home, if they could only have seen the fall of the Berlin Wall, the freedom of the former countries of the Soviet Union, the basic fall of Communism, our trade with China, sure we have problems in the US today, but those Men did not die in vain!

Our Men and Women in Uniform are our Finest Citizens and our most Idealistic Citizens of all,,,Soldiers fight for the most Noble of reasons and causes, unlike our Politicians and those who profit from wars…

Our most important job as Citizens of this Country is to be forever vigilant about our own government and their reasons for wanting war,,,to fail is to let down our Country’s most important asset, our Soldiers.

ROADWARRIOR,,,OEFVET,,,SPEMACK618 and all of our Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, no matter what happens to those countries in the future, You went with the most Noble and Idealistic of Causes, America’s Security, and Freedom and a Better Life for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, YOU ARE ALL HEROES! Just like in Nam you never failed us, our Soldiers never do, I wish I could say the same for our Politicians and We the People back Home.
 
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SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.
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We fight for our country, yes and we also fight for the man or woman next to us... Victory isnt always winning the war but sometimes its just making sure you and your team make it back to whatever FOB at the end of the mission.

We dont go back for our dead because of some stuip law or rule... we go back becuase they are our brothers and sisters in arms and as much as we may or may not like the person who went down they are one of us...
Some people like to think there are no winners but the truth be told you can either fight the fight over there or over here... Yes, were not going to change a society that still lives like its the 2nd Century BC but what we are accomplishing it the firm impressing that messing with our nation has severe consequences and unlike much of the rest of the world we can and will kick someones butt for messing with our nation....we can never win like WWI or WWII with all the rules the politicans make us fight with and politically castrated generals dont override and only add more too... but were still no joke as a military..
 
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There isn't a chance in the hot place that I would render aid to a person I just shot.

When confronted with a situation, I will give that person every opportunity to stay alive. When force is the only option, I will lay fire on that guy until there is no sign of resistance. At that point, in my philosophy, the person I shot is just going to have to hope that I missed the vitals, and that he's luckier than I am.

I wasn't given a choice about whether or not to shoot him, and I'm not going to interfere with whatever fate has in store for him.

I'm going to back the heck away, avoid his probably infected blood and tissue samples, not put myself within spitting distance, take care of my family, and protect myself.
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Amen. I agree with you 100%.
 
TRW, thank you for your service to our country.

As for approaching a downed person, there are any number of things to keep in mind:
1. are they shamming, to draw you in close?
2. Where are you in relation to the person, cover, and his gun?
3. Can you approach from a safe direction?
4. Can you neutralize him (cuffs, rope, whatever)? He may be out now, but revive and be really upset with you.
5. How can you help him best - getting trained people there vs. your level of training and equipment to deal with the situation ?
6. Could you be destroying or moving evidence that could help you - or him?
(added) 7. How good are you at evaluating his condition? Is he dead, unconcious, or playing possum?

I have given this a lot of thought, as we live remote, and response time around here runs 45 min. at the best! On the other hand, I have some training in field treatment of GSW and keep advanced med supplies on the ranch and in my cars.

And I would never apologize for shooting someone - it was his actions that made me do it in the first place, and now I can expect to spend $50,000 even if I am innocent and can prove it. I would say nothing except that needed to assure my safety and help treat him if I chose to do so.

Edited to add:
8. On TV, crooks either resist totally or obey every command perfectly. In real life, they do anything but. Crooks train in prison to say "Stop hurting me!" while they try to kill you.
9. What do you do when the downed person does not speak any language you do?
 
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TRW: Come home safe, brother.

We render aid to our military enemies for two reasons.

First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.

Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind. When the transitional psychotic experience of war ends, it is important for our warriors to return to civilization and their homes and families as human beings who are not ashamed of what they have done in the name of our country. Showing mercy to a military enemy -- when appropriate -- facilitates this transition. We can be warriors who must kill without being killers. Mostly. Hopefully.

In WWII Europe and North Africa, there were documented cases of medics of either side risking their lives to render aid to the enemy's wounded on the battlefield. Actions like this make an eventual transition to peace thinkable, which can invite the losing side in war to give up sooner. The Japanese on the other hand fought a war of no quarter in the Pacific, and received one in kind. There was a much wider racial and cultural gap between the Japanese and the Americans than between Americans and Germans or Italians. Thirty percent of the US Army fighting in Europe was of German extraction to some degree.

Afghanistan? My only Afghani friend told me -- long before 9/11-- that the reason he immigrated to America is that we can disagree about stuff here without somebody pulling a Kalashnikov. Afghanistan has always has been very violent culture. We can't change it, but we can -- and have -- stopped them from exporting religious murder to the rest of the world. For now anyway.

A sociopathic, home-invading felon lying on my floor bleeding out? It's good legal and psychological strategy to render aid, but only if safe to do so. He dealt the cards, and frankly doesn't have the moral stature of a battlefield enemy. I'll be sure to tell the cops that I want him arrested whether he bleeds to death or not.
 
First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.
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What evidence is that? "...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous.

Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind.
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Providing aid isn't the same thing as not killing.

Not in our core nature? Interesting conclusion given that we have been doing it for thousands of years (indiginously documented, the earliest being 2700 BC between Sumer and Elam) and longer (documented via archaeological evidence).

As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.

Obviously, humans killing humans goes on all the time even in "peaceful" societies. It is hard to explain away something as not being in our nature when we do it so often and even on mass scales. It is certainly in the nature of society.
 
As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.
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Actually, Grossman's work was what I had in mind when I wrote that comment. In his book On Killing he relates an incident wherein he verbally disciplined one of his subordinates (IIRC he told the soldier he would shoot him himself) if that soldier thought he could kill a prisoner. He articulated that committing such acts stiffened the enemy's will to resist and made the task of defeating him more difficult.

"...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous.
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Once again I have to remind myself that when I attempt to use irony or sarcasm in a discussion it often fails to be appreciated as such.:D

The Marines taught me that it's easy to be hard but it's hard to be smart. We should be both as needed.
 
Very interesting post.

I'm a physician too. Regarding treating the perp just shot in a SD scenario, I am in my home. What can I do? I have some 4x4s in my bathroom and some bacitracin ointment. But seriously; in this scenario the other person has several 9mm SD rounds in his chest. Am I going to needle his chest with the barrel of a ballpoint pen? Auscultate with my spare stethoscope? Start CPR? Call 911, retire to safety, and let the police and EMS do their thing.

As a civilian hypothetically involved in a shooting, this is a one off emotionally traumatic event. Would I even by mentally or emotionally capable of rendering aid? Compare this to a soldier in an army that has been at war for 10 years. Probably not the first person he's shot, not the last, nothing but work, work, work. Very different scenarios.
 
TRW ty for serving! This is a very good read. And another thing to add is you can never tell where a bullet or pellet may ricochet striking someone else. Had a friend and her uncle died because he let his brother borrow a .22 and the brother was cleaning it and it went off. went through an entire house ricocheting off a frying pan and hit him dead center of the chest. he didnt die immediately and actually talked to his family for a few mins before death.
 
Some years ago at a range in Texas, a pistol bullet hit a steel target support, bounced off another piece of steel overhead framing, penetrated the steel roof of the office and killed a teenager who was standing there with his father.
 
As far as the rest... gotta check your local laws. I have a feeling this is a huge grey area in most places. I'm not so sure you'd be covered by Good Samaritan laws since you caused the injuries. In googling trying to find some answers I did find that Minnesota at least requires you to give "reasonable assistance," however you interpret that.

Quote:
A person who discharges a firearm and knows or should know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person must immediately investigate the extent of the injuries and render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person. A person who violates this duty is subject to criminal penalties that vary according to the extent of the shooting victim’s injuries. A person who witnesses a shooting incident is subject to the same duty to investigate and render aid and is also subject to criminal penalties for failing to do so. Minn. Stat. § 609.662
IMO legally and morally you're probably better off helping if at all possible, even if it isn't required. If the DA decides to charge you, sitting there and watching while the BG bleeds out isn't going to help your case.
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Yep MN is a different place, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, but would not calling an ambulance ( or requesting one on the 911 call) be considered "rendering aid" to a gunshot wound for most non medical professionals?

certainly going on record as requesting an ambulance ( would be sent in any case) is a positive thing to do in such a negative cultural environment ( e.g. media lynchings). I also happen to think it IS the right thing to do. And I presume that everyone here would at least do that.
 
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