Ben Swenson
New member
If the intent is automatically presumed, there is no requirement to prove it, right?
War on Drugs snares 12-year-old with powdered sugar
- Thread starter tyme
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invention_45
New member
I think Tim is right.
The intent, in statutory rape, is not in the rape but in the fact that you intentionally had the sex that turned out to be rape. Sort of like you intended to look at the hot babe (rather than where you were going) while driving a car that turned out to run over a pedestrian. You didn't intend to kill anybody, but you did intend to pay attention to something other than your driving, and you've committed manslaughter.
Since I don't have the books in front of me, I'll leave the possibility I'm wrong, but I am 99.999% sure there has got to be intent.
The intent, in statutory rape, is not in the rape but in the fact that you intentionally had the sex that turned out to be rape. Sort of like you intended to look at the hot babe (rather than where you were going) while driving a car that turned out to run over a pedestrian. You didn't intend to kill anybody, but you did intend to pay attention to something other than your driving, and you've committed manslaughter.
Since I don't have the books in front of me, I'll leave the possibility I'm wrong, but I am 99.999% sure there has got to be intent.
Ben Swenson
New member
It may vary from state to state, but in at least some jurisdictions, traffic offenses, parking tickets, statutory rape, child pornography, bigamy, some environmental violations, felony murder, and so forth are considered strict liability crimes for which no mens rea is required.
Closer to home (where firearms are concerned), see U.S. v Staples - there's this little snippet in a concurring opinion:
Closer to home (where firearms are concerned), see U.S. v Staples - there's this little snippet in a concurring opinion:
So, at the time of this ruling, four courts had already decided that simple possession of an unregistered fully-automatic weapon - even if you didn't know it was full-auto (or that the bATFolks could find a way to make it run away) you were guilty.
invention_45
New member
Tim:
I doubt he was charged with possession of cocaine. He was probably charged with something like 2(a) and 2(c) below:
---------------
Florida Statutes
817.564 Imitation controlled substances defined; possession and distribution prohibited.--
(1) For the purposes of this section, the term "imitation controlled substance" means a pill, capsule, tablet, or substance in any form whatsoever which is not a controlled substance enumerated in chapter 893, which is subject to abuse, and which:
(a) By overall dosage unit appearance, including color, shape, size, markings, and packaging, or by representations made, would cause the likelihood that such a pill, capsule, tablet, or substance will be mistaken for a controlled substance unless such substance was introduced into commerce prior to the initial introduction into commerce of the controlled substance which it is alleged to imitate; or
(b) By express or implied representations, purports to act like a controlled substance as a stimulant or depressant of the central nervous system and which is not commonly used or recognized for use in that particular formulation for any purpose other than for such stimulant or depressant effect, unless marketed, promoted, or sold as permitted by the United States Food and Drug Administration.
(2) In those instances where the appearance of the dosage unit is not reasonably sufficient to establish that the substance is an imitation controlled substance, the court or authority concerned may consider, in addition to all other logically relevant factors, the following factors as related to "representations made" in determining whether the substance is an imitation controlled substance:
(a) Statements made by an owner or by anyone else in control of the substance concerning the nature of the substance or its use or effect.
(b) Statements made to the recipient that the substance may be resold for inordinate profit.
(c) Whether the substance is packaged in a manner normally used for illicit controlled substances.
(d) Evasive tactics or actions utilized by the owner or person in control of the substance to avoid detection by law enforcement authorities.
(e) Prior convictions, if any, of an owner, or anyone in control of the object, under state or federal law related to controlled substances or fraud.
(f) The proximity of the substances to controlled substances.
I doubt he was charged with possession of cocaine. He was probably charged with something like 2(a) and 2(c) below:
---------------
Florida Statutes
817.564 Imitation controlled substances defined; possession and distribution prohibited.--
(1) For the purposes of this section, the term "imitation controlled substance" means a pill, capsule, tablet, or substance in any form whatsoever which is not a controlled substance enumerated in chapter 893, which is subject to abuse, and which:
(a) By overall dosage unit appearance, including color, shape, size, markings, and packaging, or by representations made, would cause the likelihood that such a pill, capsule, tablet, or substance will be mistaken for a controlled substance unless such substance was introduced into commerce prior to the initial introduction into commerce of the controlled substance which it is alleged to imitate; or
(b) By express or implied representations, purports to act like a controlled substance as a stimulant or depressant of the central nervous system and which is not commonly used or recognized for use in that particular formulation for any purpose other than for such stimulant or depressant effect, unless marketed, promoted, or sold as permitted by the United States Food and Drug Administration.
(2) In those instances where the appearance of the dosage unit is not reasonably sufficient to establish that the substance is an imitation controlled substance, the court or authority concerned may consider, in addition to all other logically relevant factors, the following factors as related to "representations made" in determining whether the substance is an imitation controlled substance:
(a) Statements made by an owner or by anyone else in control of the substance concerning the nature of the substance or its use or effect.
(b) Statements made to the recipient that the substance may be resold for inordinate profit.
(c) Whether the substance is packaged in a manner normally used for illicit controlled substances.
(d) Evasive tactics or actions utilized by the owner or person in control of the substance to avoid detection by law enforcement authorities.
(e) Prior convictions, if any, of an owner, or anyone in control of the object, under state or federal law related to controlled substances or fraud.
(f) The proximity of the substances to controlled substances.
"If the intent is automatically presumed, there is no requirement to prove it, right?"
Correct. It's because you are presumed to know the law, since statutes are public record. The presumption is that if you break one, you intended to do so. This is different from crimes like burglary, where the prosecutor must specifically prove intent.
Tim
Correct. It's because you are presumed to know the law, since statutes are public record. The presumption is that if you break one, you intended to do so. This is different from crimes like burglary, where the prosecutor must specifically prove intent.
Tim
it makes me sad to see the days ahead where society says my children will no longer be able to expirience a rich and full life like i did as a child/teen. I remember going to school with a pocket knife everyday and bringing in all kinds of white powders for sciences and cooking in jr.high. Those actions today could ruin your childhood. Breeding mistrust by lying to the youth is never a good way to run a country.
"I doubt he was charged with possession of cocaine. He was probably charged with something like 2(a) and 2(c) below:"
I think you're right. Thank you for doing the research.
Just when I think I've seen everything, I find out that in Florida possession of a perfectly legal substance (show me one household in America that doesn't have some) becomes illegal when the possessor claims that it is actually an illegal substance.
Tim
I think you're right. Thank you for doing the research.
Just when I think I've seen everything, I find out that in Florida possession of a perfectly legal substance (show me one household in America that doesn't have some) becomes illegal when the possessor claims that it is actually an illegal substance.
Tim
invention_45
New member
exar:
you said it well.
you said it well.
oh great...now the grocery stores are gonna have to have a waiver signed with each purchase of powdered suger and powdered laundry soap. 
this has got to be the most ridiculous thing Ive heard...right next to psychiatric counseling for 8 year olds for playing cops n robbers at recess.
this has got to be the most ridiculous thing Ive heard...right next to psychiatric counseling for 8 year olds for playing cops n robbers at recess.
invention_45
New member
hmmm....
...grocer stores...laundry soap...
I have an idea how to get that law repealed !
We print up thousands of little stickers that say "NEW! Now with 10% cocaine!".
Then we stick'em on everything at the grocery stores that comes as a powder.
When all the grocery stores are shut down and everybody's starving, voila! Law gone!
...grocer stores...laundry soap...
I have an idea how to get that law repealed !
We print up thousands of little stickers that say "NEW! Now with 10% cocaine!".
Then we stick'em on everything at the grocery stores that comes as a powder.
When all the grocery stores are shut down and everybody's starving, voila! Law gone!
12-year old kid prank.
Send him to his room with no supper, and don't let him watch TV for a week. Spanking would not be inappropriate either, but 12 may be a little old for that.
Charge him with a felony? You have GOT to be kidding me. We have got to stop this police state nonsense, before it is too late.
Send him to his room with no supper, and don't let him watch TV for a week. Spanking would not be inappropriate either, but 12 may be a little old for that.
Charge him with a felony? You have GOT to be kidding me. We have got to stop this police state nonsense, before it is too late.
I was thinking more along the lines of a week or so of detention or a few days in scholl suspension. And just to make the punishment fit the crime a term paper type report on the effects of cocain abuse on the human body.
Oh and a public apology over the intercom, I'm a big believer in mild public humiliation
Oh and a public apology over the intercom, I'm a big believer in mild public humiliation
Yeah. I'm all for that.
"In conclusion, studies show that cocaine will ruin your life, and there's no such thing as recreational use."
"Hi, teachers and fellow students. I'd like to apologize for joking that a bag of sugar was a bag of coke, even though coke is mostly sugar... oh, sorry, wrong coke... or at least it is now, though coke used to contain real coke (that's the bad kind). In the future I'll refrain from any humor regarding, or any mention of, anything illegal.
"I'd also like to take this opportunity to direct the administration's attention to discussions of illegal activity taking place in English and history classes, and indeed being supported by textbook companies everywhere. Did you know that the anti-British colonists, including some of those we revere as 'Founders' of this country, committed violent criminal acts against loyalists? Are you trying to teach us that violent acts against our fellow citizens are acceptable? I hope not. In the interest of maintaining our zero-tolerance policy that we all love so much, I think we should use textbooks that maintain that the colonies were large, happy families, and that the British government was Satan incarnate.
"Until such replacement texts are found, I would urge the administration to cancel all such classes. Thank you as a caring community for giving me this opportunity to atone for my sins. I will not fail you again."
A better option might be for him to pull a DuFresne, locking himself in the PA room and playing Mozart over the intercom. One could always hope that such a rebellious act would raise the administration's collective IQ out of the gutter.
"In conclusion, studies show that cocaine will ruin your life, and there's no such thing as recreational use."
"Hi, teachers and fellow students. I'd like to apologize for joking that a bag of sugar was a bag of coke, even though coke is mostly sugar... oh, sorry, wrong coke... or at least it is now, though coke used to contain real coke (that's the bad kind). In the future I'll refrain from any humor regarding, or any mention of, anything illegal.
"I'd also like to take this opportunity to direct the administration's attention to discussions of illegal activity taking place in English and history classes, and indeed being supported by textbook companies everywhere. Did you know that the anti-British colonists, including some of those we revere as 'Founders' of this country, committed violent criminal acts against loyalists? Are you trying to teach us that violent acts against our fellow citizens are acceptable? I hope not. In the interest of maintaining our zero-tolerance policy that we all love so much, I think we should use textbooks that maintain that the colonies were large, happy families, and that the British government was Satan incarnate.
"Until such replacement texts are found, I would urge the administration to cancel all such classes. Thank you as a caring community for giving me this opportunity to atone for my sins. I will not fail you again."
A better option might be for him to pull a DuFresne, locking himself in the PA room and playing Mozart over the intercom. One could always hope that such a rebellious act would raise the administration's collective IQ out of the gutter.
The reason I say in school is because the parents are defending or at least excusing his actions, and the offense was committed in school.
Regardless of your position on the war on drugs the school's official position is that drugs are bad.
The punishment would serve to enforce the theory that actions have consequences without unduly stigmatizing him or introducing him to the penal system or causing him to lose school time.
He's gonna have to write term papers soon anyway so it will help him in the long run
Regardless of your position on the war on drugs the school's official position is that drugs are bad.
The punishment would serve to enforce the theory that actions have consequences without unduly stigmatizing him or introducing him to the penal system or causing him to lose school time.
He's gonna have to write term papers soon anyway so it will help him in the long run
DonR101395
New member
The law about fake drugs is dumb, the 12 year old is just as dumb and I don't remember the bill of rights having the right to do drugs anywhere in it.
last_stand
New member
Yeah but supposen he says something like "sure its coke, wanna buy some?." then it becomes intent to distrubute...very serious. I saw a guy on cops get arrested for selling nuts as crackrocks. He got arrested...
just a thought...
just a thought...