Walther P99 single action trigger mode?
- Thread starter gont
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Page 10 of the Walther owner's manual refers to the P99 (non-QA) trigger modes as: 1. double action, 2. single action - trigger forward & 3. single action - trigger rearward.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "click".
Nevertheless, IMO, the pistol should not be carried in mode 3.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "click".
Nevertheless, IMO, the pistol should not be carried in mode 3.
Stop the insanity.
Why anyone would sacrifice the safety inherent of a DA trigger (mode 1) when they have the option is beyond me. Whatever you want to believe about your superhuman gun handling habits, you unnecessarily increase your risk of an AD with modes 2 and 3 for CCW. There is no reason for anyone (not on a swat team) to have a pistol that "ready to go" for defensive shooting. If you can't master a DA first shot for a target less than 7 yards away you shouldn't own a gun.
Maybe mode 2 for IDPA if you're a real gamer. But mode 3 is like carrying a cocked revolver around. That's plain stupid.
I have to blame Glock for making people believe that it's smart to walk around with both a light trigger and no safety. There is not enough common sense being applied and I really fear for those carrying such weapons and the bystanders around them.
Why anyone would sacrifice the safety inherent of a DA trigger (mode 1) when they have the option is beyond me. Whatever you want to believe about your superhuman gun handling habits, you unnecessarily increase your risk of an AD with modes 2 and 3 for CCW. There is no reason for anyone (not on a swat team) to have a pistol that "ready to go" for defensive shooting. If you can't master a DA first shot for a target less than 7 yards away you shouldn't own a gun.
Maybe mode 2 for IDPA if you're a real gamer. But mode 3 is like carrying a cocked revolver around. That's plain stupid.
I have to blame Glock for making people believe that it's smart to walk around with both a light trigger and no safety. There is not enough common sense being applied and I really fear for those carrying such weapons and the bystanders around them.
*click* mode is trigger forward SA.
Called *click* mode due to the click transition from trigger forward to SA.
The Walther is perfectly safe, IMO, being carried in SA-Trigger forward aka:"click".
Handy, I fear someone who relies on a mechanical safety to cover up sloppy gunhandling, FAR more than I fear someone who has ingrained the "keep your finger off the trigger, until ready to fire" and carries a Glock. BTW: the Glock has a safety, the pistol will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, and the trigger safety must be depressed, before the trigger can be pulled.
Called *click* mode due to the click transition from trigger forward to SA.
The Walther is perfectly safe, IMO, being carried in SA-Trigger forward aka:"click".
Handy, I fear someone who relies on a mechanical safety to cover up sloppy gunhandling, FAR more than I fear someone who has ingrained the "keep your finger off the trigger, until ready to fire" and carries a Glock. BTW: the Glock has a safety, the pistol will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, and the trigger safety must be depressed, before the trigger can be pulled.
Catbird, I'm sure the argument could be made that click mode is the equivelant to "safe action" for the IDPA boys. Or you could just shoot it in ESP division like that.
NMG, I have a Glock. I don't think when actually under attack that someone has the luxury of perfect gunhandling skills. Have you ever practiced blindly searching the floor for your dropped gun and grasping it quickly? How about drawing it weak hand from leather? Will your fingers do the right thing when you're barely holding on to consciousness?
I have a New York 1 trigger in my Glock. I can shoot it quite accurately.
Our fathers trusted their lives to long 10lbs. DA triggers and positive manual safeties. Why do we know so much better than them?
NMG, I have a Glock. I don't think when actually under attack that someone has the luxury of perfect gunhandling skills. Have you ever practiced blindly searching the floor for your dropped gun and grasping it quickly? How about drawing it weak hand from leather? Will your fingers do the right thing when you're barely holding on to consciousness?
I have a New York 1 trigger in my Glock. I can shoot it quite accurately.
Our fathers trusted their lives to long 10lbs. DA triggers and positive manual safeties. Why do we know so much better than them?
Actually I have attended several Tac-Pistol Courses, where we did feel around in the dark on the ground for our pistol, and weak handed draws were about 25% of one class, along with weak hand only malfunction drills, and reloads. I always train like i'd like to fight, so instilling good gun handling skills, to autopilot level, helps in my ability to reatin those skills under pressure.
And their fathers, fathers, trusted muzzle loaders and flintlocks, why do we know so much better than them? My father trusted his life to a 6lb. trigger on a .357mag revolver, without a safety, sounds Glock-like to me.
I personally will not carry a defensive handgun with a manual safety. I think its odd, that in one sentence you say that under attack your gunhandling could go to crap, and you'll forget everything you've trained, but in the next, you seem to think that under that same stress, you'll remember to disengage that littly bitty lever that allows your gun to go bang.
I trust that my "safety" is engaged (ie: brain, trained responses), and you trust that your "safety" will disengage (ie: brain, trained responses). Seems like a wash out to me, because if either of us screws up, we could die.
Just my lil ol' humble opinion:
I think the word "click" is/was confusing. It doesn't/didn't clearly define the trigger position, i.e., is it before the click or after the click.
We here in this thread may now know what "click" refers to, but what about all the other folks? For me, I'm going to refer to it as SA-trigger forward and SA-trigger rearward in order to eliminate the confusion. (I'm already confused enough!)
I think the word "click" is/was confusing. It doesn't/didn't clearly define the trigger position, i.e., is it before the click or after the click.
We here in this thread may now know what "click" refers to, but what about all the other folks? For me, I'm going to refer to it as SA-trigger forward and SA-trigger rearward in order to eliminate the confusion. (I'm already confused enough!)
NMG,
A light trigger with no safety is not a technological innovation (like musket to M1), it's a choice. Soldiers could have cocked their 1911 and trusted the grip safety, but have you heard anyone do that? Why is a 5 lbs. trigger with no grip safety better?
I don't care for cocked and locked either. Nor do I care for cocked and UNlocked. By carrying a pistol in this mode you make an unprecedented decision in the course of firearms development and deployment.
No one has demonstrated a need for this type of carry. There is none.
A light trigger with no safety is not a technological innovation (like musket to M1), it's a choice. Soldiers could have cocked their 1911 and trusted the grip safety, but have you heard anyone do that? Why is a 5 lbs. trigger with no grip safety better?
I don't care for cocked and locked either. Nor do I care for cocked and UNlocked. By carrying a pistol in this mode you make an unprecedented decision in the course of firearms development and deployment.
No one has demonstrated a need for this type of carry. There is none.
I carry cocked. I just never have been as accurate in DA mode when rushed. The SA trigger is really nice.
BUT, it takes a lot of disclipline and wears heavy on the nerves. EVERY time I touch my pistol, it is a conscience thing, I can never take it for granted and perhaps that is the way to be.
It is scarey at first, and less scarey (still scarey) after a while, but it brings with it a self disclipline and attention. You have to be very very careful when holstering, I mean very very careful.
BUT, it takes a lot of disclipline and wears heavy on the nerves. EVERY time I touch my pistol, it is a conscience thing, I can never take it for granted and perhaps that is the way to be.
It is scarey at first, and less scarey (still scarey) after a while, but it brings with it a self disclipline and attention. You have to be very very careful when holstering, I mean very very careful.
Actually, wasn't the 1911 originally designed without a thumb safety? I think I remember hearing that it was added at the request of the Cavalry? Or maybe it was the grip safety? I'm not up on my 1911 history, but I do know that one of the safeties wasn't on JMB's original design.
Why is it worse?
How many safeties is optimal, if one is good, two must be better, if two is better, three has got to be even better.
Why would a SWAT team require a weapon more "ready to go" than I would? In fact they would need a safer weapon, since they are working in close proximity to "friendlies" under stress, in an unfamiliar enviornment, whereas a typical SD situation would involve a homeowner in his house (familiar enviornment), investigating a known problem (no "friendlies" in close proximity).
And you still haven't answered this?
I think the Glocks and others like it such as the P99QA, H&K LEM, etc. are an evolution of the KISS principle. Since whether you shoot a Sig, a 1911, or a Glock, you must keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, why not incorporate that as a safety, and remove one more variable from the fire sequence
NMG,
Your response to the Swat comment leads me to believe that you perceive the need to deliver pin point accuracy at any range up to 50 yards and you expect hostages. You may wish to consult your prosecutor's office about what constitutes a defensive shooting.
I did answer your Cocked and locked question, you just didn't understand. I don't like cocked and locked due to the stress shooting problem. However, it is the only intelligent way to carry certain types of firearms. If I were issued a 1911 to carry I would rather learn to use the safety than just cock it and stick it in the holster. I gather from your response you wouldn't apply the safety and just "be careful" instead?
Also, when spouting 1911 trivia, keep in mind the calvary would have carried hammer down, as they did the Colt SAA.
Where do you live that you aren't served by a DA first shot? East Timor?
Your response to the Swat comment leads me to believe that you perceive the need to deliver pin point accuracy at any range up to 50 yards and you expect hostages. You may wish to consult your prosecutor's office about what constitutes a defensive shooting.
I did answer your Cocked and locked question, you just didn't understand. I don't like cocked and locked due to the stress shooting problem. However, it is the only intelligent way to carry certain types of firearms. If I were issued a 1911 to carry I would rather learn to use the safety than just cock it and stick it in the holster. I gather from your response you wouldn't apply the safety and just "be careful" instead?
Also, when spouting 1911 trivia, keep in mind the calvary would have carried hammer down, as they did the Colt SAA.
Where do you live that you aren't served by a DA first shot? East Timor?
I said:
As far as hostage situations go, if you've had training in how to deal with them (which I have), "pinpoint" accuracy is not necessary.
What is the advantage of a DA first shot, followed by an awkward transition to SA? Should all pistols be DAO? If DAO what is your "expert opinion" on the minimum trigger pull?
Why don't you worry about your carry style, and let me worry about mine?
In response Handy said:
Maybe YOUR house has ranges up to 50 yards, but MY house is maximum 30' or so. Where did you come up with 50 yards? The same place where you decided that 5 lb trigger with no safety was too light?
As far as hostage situations go, if you've had training in how to deal with them (which I have), "pinpoint" accuracy is not necessary.
I would think that you would prefer "Israeli Style" hammer down empty chamber, draw-rack-shoot, after all, it IS safer, and thats the way the Israeli "experts" carry.
No, like I said, I will not carry a defensive pistol that has a manual safety... period. I will carry modern design pistols, which have multiple passive safeties, by carrying the 1911 cocked and unlocked, you are by-passing its main safety.
Like I said, I am not up on my 1911 trivia, I do not remember who requested the extra safety, hence my "trivia" contained many ??? in it. But I do remember that the 1911 was originally designed without one of the safeties, and i'm thinking it was the thumb safety. I am correct in that part of the "trivia" aren't I?
Why are you so concerned with how I choose to carry MY defensive pistol?
What is the advantage of a DA first shot, followed by an awkward transition to SA? Should all pistols be DAO? If DAO what is your "expert opinion" on the minimum trigger pull?
Why don't you worry about your carry style, and let me worry about mine?