BigBob3006
New member
The man who attempts to take a gun away from some one who's armed, is a fool.
Wait vs Don't Wait Scenario?
- Thread starter stonewall50
- Start date
Lost Sheep
New member
Who goes around WANTING to be THAT KIND of hero?
Most of us are not law enforcement, and if we sport delusions of such, we could drift over into vigilantism. Not a good thing.
There is a saying among (tv cops, at least), "If you want to be a hero, join the fire department."
The riskiest heroism I SEEK is donating to my local Blood Bank.
Lost Sheep
Frankly, if an armed civilian has the attitude of wanting to engage in heroism that involves gunplay, I would definitely stay behind that person, WAY behind.
Most of us are not law enforcement, and if we sport delusions of such, we could drift over into vigilantism. Not a good thing.
There is a saying among (tv cops, at least), "If you want to be a hero, join the fire department."
The riskiest heroism I SEEK is donating to my local Blood Bank.
Lost Sheep
Last edited:
I posted this along time ago in another thread.
Someone very close to me(I'll refer to as Jack) was going out gambling one night and was supposed to meet up with a friend at a Cols.Ohio bar called the O.K. Cowgirl Saloon located on S.High St. After they met, they were going to a big poker game out on the east side of town.
The inside of this bar was very long and narrow with a main entrance door off High St. and a rear entrance door from an alley in back. With only 6 or so local patrons sitting at the bar, Jack had no trouble finding a place to sit.
Jack sits down at the bar and orders a beer. He never got that beer half drank till a hooded man and woman entered the front door and another hooded man came in the back door. All had guns. Both men had handguns, woman had sawed off shotgun.
They announced they were robbing the place and ordered everyone against the wall with hands up on the wall. Robbers quickly took register till, all wallets, jewelry and for no more people present, the robbers scored fairly well. They were in and out in minutes. You could tell this wasn't their first rodeo.
Jack lost close to $600 and a very nice old Bulova watch given to him by his Uncle. The robbers missed several thous. $'s he had divided and hidden in his boots along with his pistol in an ankle holster.
Jacks biggest concern through the whole thing was that one of the patrons would try to be a hero. Since the bar was so narrow and with everyone lined up against the wall, one blast by the woman welding the shotgun would be devastating for several people down the line. Thankfully that never happened.
For those that think they would 'blaze away' or just 'shoot the BG in the head" if given the opportunity, I hope you really think about what you're doing. You may get some innocent people killed. You're scared and more than likely so is the BG. The money/valuables can be replaced.
Course, if the BG starts pulling the trigger, we have to do what we have to do.
PS. Jack really missed that watch. It had special meaning.
Oooops... forgot to mention, Jack also lost his wedding ring. Didn't take him long to get over that though, he soon divorced.
Someone very close to me(I'll refer to as Jack) was going out gambling one night and was supposed to meet up with a friend at a Cols.Ohio bar called the O.K. Cowgirl Saloon located on S.High St. After they met, they were going to a big poker game out on the east side of town.
The inside of this bar was very long and narrow with a main entrance door off High St. and a rear entrance door from an alley in back. With only 6 or so local patrons sitting at the bar, Jack had no trouble finding a place to sit.
Jack sits down at the bar and orders a beer. He never got that beer half drank till a hooded man and woman entered the front door and another hooded man came in the back door. All had guns. Both men had handguns, woman had sawed off shotgun.
They announced they were robbing the place and ordered everyone against the wall with hands up on the wall. Robbers quickly took register till, all wallets, jewelry and for no more people present, the robbers scored fairly well. They were in and out in minutes. You could tell this wasn't their first rodeo.
Jack lost close to $600 and a very nice old Bulova watch given to him by his Uncle. The robbers missed several thous. $'s he had divided and hidden in his boots along with his pistol in an ankle holster.
Jacks biggest concern through the whole thing was that one of the patrons would try to be a hero. Since the bar was so narrow and with everyone lined up against the wall, one blast by the woman welding the shotgun would be devastating for several people down the line. Thankfully that never happened.
For those that think they would 'blaze away' or just 'shoot the BG in the head" if given the opportunity, I hope you really think about what you're doing. You may get some innocent people killed. You're scared and more than likely so is the BG. The money/valuables can be replaced.
Course, if the BG starts pulling the trigger, we have to do what we have to do.
PS. Jack really missed that watch. It had special meaning.
Oooops... forgot to mention, Jack also lost his wedding ring. Didn't take him long to get over that though, he soon divorced.
Last edited:
Try shooting one of those skinny balloons used by entertainers to make different figures as this would simulate the small instant kill area inside the head or the upper spinal cord. Better yet try to hit that skinny balloon while its concealed inside the head sized round balloon. Now make it move erratically. You also have angles that can change where you need to impact the target for the bullet path to cross the desired instant stop zone. Reality has it much more difficult to instantly stop someone than most folks understand. Once I learned this it became very clear what the correct course of action is in this scenario.
Now this is well said.
OldMarksman
Staff
NO! I suppose there may some people who are in superb condition who have extremely fast reflexes and who practice all of the time who might be able to pull that off, but I am not one of them.
There was once a Border Patrol agent who probably could have gotten by with that, but whether he would have tried is another question. There were some TV stars in the fifties and later who could do that, but they depended upon the director's instruction that the other guy lose; they used single actions loaded with blanks and carried in special fast draw holsters; they got more than one try; and just to make the fiction look convincing, they needed training from Arvo Ojala and later, Thel Reed.
Is there any jurisdiction in the country in which is that is not true (assuming, of course, that he is not an officer who is lawfully arresting you, and a few other things)?
However, being justified in doing something does not give you the ability to do it.
I recently saw Massad Ayoob demonstrating something on Personal Defense TV. The scenario was different: the perp has not yet drawn when he meets you at arms length, but his hand is on his gun. However, the question was the same: "Do you pull your 45 and shoot him (as you make an evasive move)...". Actually, it wasn't a .45.
The answer was no, because you cannot outdraw him. The recommended move was to get your other hand on his gun hand to prevent him from drawing and go for your gun as you do that.
If one cannot beat a man who has his hand on his gun, I cannot see how one could believe for a moment that he could beat a man who has his gun already pointed.
I posted the scenario in order to make you all think. I wanted you to decide if you would act differently if it was you at risk instead of the store clerk. I actually think you would have been safer pulling on the bad guy who was threatening the store clerk (and yes, that would likely pass muster with KS law as well -- I don't want to research all other 49 states in which I do not live).
But by the way, the scenario was somewhat true. The victim acted calmly and reassured the BG that he could have his wallet. The BG relaxed a bit as the intended victim reached for his "wallet" in his back pocket and pulled a 45 instead. The BG was not shot but was held as police were summoned. This happened last fall in Kansas City.
I think the fact that the victim encouraged the BG to relax helped the situation. But the victim had to constantly read the BG and interpret his most likely responses. This would not be much different if the victim was the store clerk. Every scenario is different. Cool heads can prevail, but yes there is risk.
I would never engage in a quick draw and dodge contest unless I knew it was my only hope. And I hope it will never be.
Good comments. Keep thinking. Keep cool. Stay safe.
But by the way, the scenario was somewhat true. The victim acted calmly and reassured the BG that he could have his wallet. The BG relaxed a bit as the intended victim reached for his "wallet" in his back pocket and pulled a 45 instead. The BG was not shot but was held as police were summoned. This happened last fall in Kansas City.
I think the fact that the victim encouraged the BG to relax helped the situation. But the victim had to constantly read the BG and interpret his most likely responses. This would not be much different if the victim was the store clerk. Every scenario is different. Cool heads can prevail, but yes there is risk.
I would never engage in a quick draw and dodge contest unless I knew it was my only hope. And I hope it will never be.
Good comments. Keep thinking. Keep cool. Stay safe.
Jake Balam
New member
I'm a cashier at a small convenience store. Not only is there always one armed cashier (usually two) let me just assure you of this. I don't want ANYONE shooting in my direction.
Jake Balam
New member
Luckily this is a privately owned non chain store. You'll never see a 711 clerk packing.
My boss is a 60 year old Korean guy who wears his NRA jacket and hat to work every day.
He takes his son and I shooting once a week, even pays for ammo.
He was in the army in Korea, very good trainer
My boss is a 60 year old Korean guy who wears his NRA jacket and hat to work every day.
He takes his son and I shooting once a week, even pays for ammo.
He was in the army in Korea, very good trainer
BigBob3006
New member
I hope you don't mind if I get in here with an other thought. If you want to be really impressed see if you can find a book titled "Fast and Fancy Shooting"
by Ed McGivern. I'm not real positive on the spelling of the name of the author
but that should get you there. I won't tell of some of the things that Ed has done with all sorts of handguns. But everything he has done has been documented.
I think I was pretty fast at one time, and I worked at it. But I wouldn't think of disarming a man by hand, and I've been trained to do so. Sure we all see the TV hero do fantastic things but let me clue you in on something. It happens because that is the way the script writer wrote it. If they killed the hero off, that would be the end of the show.
I liked John Wayne just as most of us did. I had a little extra reason. I saw him on a TV talk show one night and the MC asked him if it was possible for anyone to live up to his stature, to which Wayne said, " No man could ever measure up to his image.". When ask why, Wayne replied "I have two stunt men, four writers, a directer and a retake to redo it to make it better.".
At a time when most people were projecting a big image, John Wayne told it like it was. That goes a long ways.
by Ed McGivern. I'm not real positive on the spelling of the name of the author
but that should get you there. I won't tell of some of the things that Ed has done with all sorts of handguns. But everything he has done has been documented.
I think I was pretty fast at one time, and I worked at it. But I wouldn't think of disarming a man by hand, and I've been trained to do so. Sure we all see the TV hero do fantastic things but let me clue you in on something. It happens because that is the way the script writer wrote it. If they killed the hero off, that would be the end of the show.
I liked John Wayne just as most of us did. I had a little extra reason. I saw him on a TV talk show one night and the MC asked him if it was possible for anyone to live up to his stature, to which Wayne said, " No man could ever measure up to his image.". When ask why, Wayne replied "I have two stunt men, four writers, a directer and a retake to redo it to make it better.".
At a time when most people were projecting a big image, John Wayne told it like it was. That goes a long ways.
Well I would hand it over. But hell will be upon him if he turns his back on me. Some old timers use a "dummy wallet" with like 10 or 15 bucks and some old id stuff.
Some say toss this over the BGs shoulderm then when he turns to get it draw and shoot. hope you hit him and stop him before he shoots ya back.
If he wants only money let him have it, maybe he will OD
problem solved.This whole thread is full of bravado and speculation.
Let's think about the laws (thinking KS here -- you research your own state):
You cannot use lethal force unless you justifiably fear for your life or that of others.
So as one suggested (I paraphrase): All hell breaks loose if he turns his back on me... Really? Shoot him in the back? The threat to your life will be hard to justify after he turns his back.
And another says you don't have a chance of shooting him if he even has his hand on his gun (paraphrased again, so don't nitpick me). So if he produces a gun you do not have a chance, so just comply with his wishes and hope he does not shoot (one writer suggests he will only shoot 25% of the time). Don't even try in this case, since he will always outgun you.
And if he does not produce a gun, you can't produce yours?
Hell, none of this makes sense. You can't use your gun unless he goes first, but you don't have a chance, so don't dare try.
So will someone please enlighten me. Just why in the world do you bother to carry?
I remain confused.
Let's think about the laws (thinking KS here -- you research your own state):
You cannot use lethal force unless you justifiably fear for your life or that of others.
So as one suggested (I paraphrase): All hell breaks loose if he turns his back on me... Really? Shoot him in the back? The threat to your life will be hard to justify after he turns his back.
And another says you don't have a chance of shooting him if he even has his hand on his gun (paraphrased again, so don't nitpick me). So if he produces a gun you do not have a chance, so just comply with his wishes and hope he does not shoot (one writer suggests he will only shoot 25% of the time). Don't even try in this case, since he will always outgun you.
And if he does not produce a gun, you can't produce yours?
Hell, none of this makes sense. You can't use your gun unless he goes first, but you don't have a chance, so don't dare try.
So will someone please enlighten me. Just why in the world do you bother to carry?
I remain confused.
Eagle Eye...
... you said yourself, in many jurisdictions, it's a threat to oneself OR OTHERS.
If the guy turns his back on me, but is still threatening the clerk, then it's quite possible that a shooting would be legally justified.
Whether it would be tactically sound is another matter entirely.
And one had better be extremely sure one understands the situation before defending a stranger; sometimes, the apparent BG is a plainclothes cop making an arrest, for instance.
But plainclothes cops don't typically hold up convenience stores.
... you said yourself, in many jurisdictions, it's a threat to oneself OR OTHERS.
If the guy turns his back on me, but is still threatening the clerk, then it's quite possible that a shooting would be legally justified.
Whether it would be tactically sound is another matter entirely.
And one had better be extremely sure one understands the situation before defending a stranger; sometimes, the apparent BG is a plainclothes cop making an arrest, for instance.
But plainclothes cops don't typically hold up convenience stores.
OldMarksman
Staff
OldMarksman
Staff
I have, and I'm afraid they do not.
Perhaps, and I'm guessing here, you are mixing three questions: (1) What to do in the clerk-at-gunpoint-scenario; (2) whether one would likely survive if one were to draw on someone already holding a gun; (3) when one is justified in shooting in self defense.
If so, perhaps, when you say "You can't use your gun unless he goes first", which is nonsensical, you are trying to paraphrase advice that a civilianshould not intervene in the clerk scenario unless things have gone beyond the point of no return.
Or not. Your statement "if he does not produce a gun, you can't produce yours" makes no sense at all.
If someone poses an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm, and if you have not other means of avoiding the threat, you do not have to wait until "he goes first".
Fine. Don't worry about the quotes. However, I do strongly suggest that you take the time to study the entire paper to which I provided a link.
I am really poking fun at those who made these sorts of statements throughout the thread. I am trying to show that the conflicting comments make no sense. It is others who have made those statements in words that I have paraphrased and shortened. These are not my comments and thoughts. I am saying that if all these sorts of statements made by others were true, that they are so conflicting that one may as not carry.
This has obviously been lost on you and perhaps on others, so I give up. I do carry.
I will not continue to engage in a battle of wits with those who are obviously unarmed. I have therefore retreated.
Lighten up.
This has obviously been lost on you and perhaps on others, so I give up. I do carry.
I will not continue to engage in a battle of wits with those who are obviously unarmed. I have therefore retreated.
Lighten up.