Wait vs Don't Wait Scenario?

IMO, if the BG wants to kill somebody, then he's not going to

ask for money.

It's a little difficult to state for certain what they will or won't do,

as there are no guarantees in life.

What I DO know for sure, is I have NO LE :

BACKUP

AUTHORITY

INSURANCE

TRAINING


If I take no action, no one will question it. If I do anything, and

somebody is injured, they're going to pour all over me like maple syrup.

YMMV, but I'd prefer not to fish without B.A.I.T.
 
I'm still sticking by my guns and saying if you can stay calm enough to line up a shot, make a good example out of him. He has a gun pointed at someone who is just trying to do their job. If I did nothing and the clerk got killed I think I would really beat myself up over it.
 
AS I'm not willing to start a shootout in pubic place unless I have no other choice. I would not get involved, as much as I would like to, I will be a good witness when the police arrive. Now if the bandit turns on me or mine that is a different story.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I'll play the what if game. If the robber is armed and not aware of my presence, I draw my weapon and remain hidden if possible. If at any point I feel the tone of the situation is escalating then I say engage the robber and end it then and there. As always, make sure of you targets background and foreground. Mae sure the clerk is clear of your bullet path and shoot at the bottom half of the back of the head. If you hit the CNS, he will die before being able to react.

I would agree with being a good witness unless I felt like that particular situation was escalating. It comes down to a personal judgment call and everyone perceives situation differently. In my mind, robbing a store at gun point makes it reasonable to believe that they will use lethal force to get the money and I should react accordingly. State laws vary in this regard as well, so that affects the situation as well.
 
One of the gun writers, retired NYPD, I respected, I unfortunately cannot remeber his name, was faced with a situation in Michigan.

He and his wife were in a C Store when it was robbed. He was armed, experienced and able to intervene. He chose not to. His position was that the only way he would have drawn was if the Perp. had tried to force the customers into the cooler. At that time perps who put the victums in the cooler intended to kill them.

If a man of his skills and experience would take that course, then I will probably follow his lead.

Arkansas Sheriffs Tommy Robinson and Sheriff Jack Dews initiated a policy of posting Deputies in C-Stores with orders to shoot to kill any robbers. The Stores were clearly posted with warning signs stating that an armed Deputy might or might be present. If the Deputy was present he had orders to shoot to kill. After a couple of perps were dispatched there were no robberies of participating C-Stores.

Until faced with the situation, one does not know what he will do. The aftermath of a shooting is extremely hard on the shooter. If it isn't then that individual is not responsible enough to carry a firearm.

I have found that those with the most Bravado are the least likely to act responsibly.
 
If they are in danger of being shot then I can kill them
Click to expand...

Kill some one?

I could shoot to stop a threat ,if the BG die is as result of trying to stop the threat

I think if you are involved in any situation and you say "I kill the BG por X reason"... could get you more trouble, I think, not sure cause I am not a lawyer but every word you use can and will be used against you.


in the other hand, I dont think I would try to act like a macho/hero.. that could be a hard shot, if you are hidden, maybe you will be a little far and probably the clerk will be in front of the BG.. if you shoot you can easily miss...if you are far, if you move just a little bit the muzzle while shooting, you will miss the BG...

Have you practiced shooting from cover? close and 10 yards ? in a not very comfortable position?

have you shoot something that is maybe moving?

and more important, have you shoot under stress to shoot a very accurate shoot at the head? even worst, if you miss you can shoot the clerk?


many of we can say I would do this or that or those... but have we practiced enough ? or have we only shoot straight at the range?

and even if we have some training there is the factor of stress in real situation, which it is hard to simulate...
 
I know in my state the law is "stand in their shoes." If they are in danger of being shot then I can kill them legally and the state will pay for my court fees
Click to expand...

I see you are in FL, have you read the "Florida firearms law use & ownership", if dont, you should.. I got many answers after reading it.

I think every gun owner in FL should read this...

basically I will shoot only if I or my family are fear of death or if any BG is shooting/killing some one and I am close enough...other way I prefer to be a witness, sadly if you something, you could get many problems and the clerk/store's owner probably will not pay anything if you get sued (civil)...and that would cost a lot of money...
 
Sadly the safest option is to just stop the BG. Move quickly to the side thus taking the store clerk out of the line of fire and stop the deadly threat.
Click to expand...

Do a commando roll and come up guns a blazin while we are making things up. We can go for that easy instant stop while we are at it.

Seriously since most convenient stores have different layouts and your position in said store at the precise time of the robbery is unpredictable it is pretty safe to say that this is fantasy.

The fact is the safest option is to do nothing. Statistics confirm this. I know because it was used to defeat me in a similar debate. My position was for action. I was shown that this choice virtually guaranteed injury to someone where none would have occurred statistically speaking had I simply stayed hidden.

Sure I would feel horrible if the cashier was injured by my not acting. Still I would feel worst if the cashier was injured because I acted.

What I have learned is that in a fluid situation there are no guarantees. You may miss, get a malfunction, get hit yourself, get the cashier shot by the reflexing bad guy, get someone outside hit from a stray, get sued, and many many more. All on a decision based on the very rarest of robbery outcomes. It just isn't smart to act unless there is no better option.
 
Freeze

I believe what I would do is yell "freeze" with my gun pointed at him from behind. I figure he is unlikely to shoot the clerk knowing there is a witness to the murder. Moreover, since he can't see you, for all he knows your a law enforcement officer and that he is dead meat if he shoots the clerk. So, he probably is going to hi-tail it out the door (dropping the money if he has already gotten it) to avoid being shot and take his chances of getting away without being arrested.

Then again, it's easy to say what you would do, it's another thing doing it.
 
I can guarantee you that you will at some point in the entire encounter that you will feel stress. It may be when the DA is considering charging you with murder, but rest assured, you will feel stress.
Click to expand...

You are 100 percent correct.

My coworker interrupted a robbery in progress at a business next to our pawnshop. The bad guy exited and pointed his gun at my coworker. My coworker fired a round striking the bad guy and it caused him to drop his gun and money however he ran away. Later he was arrested in the hospital.

His 100 percent justifiable action still caused him much stress. Stress from thinking his ticket was about to get punched. Stress from the interview with law enforcement. Stress from concerns of retaliation. Finally stress from the robber he shot coming back to see him after being released 15 years later (thankfully the visit was to apologize and thank my coworker for saving him from death or life in prison.....his fate he predicted had his spree not been ended early by getting shot and arrested).
 
"Seriously since most convenient stores have different layouts and your position in said store at the precise time of the robbery is unpredictable it is pretty safe to say that this is fantasy. The fact is the safest option is to do nothing. Statistics confirm this. "

Thank you for your comments, they are not without merit. My example presupposes a safe rescue can be attempted, if not, I hang tight.

Recall a c-store clerk who was robbed, he handed over the money, was docile thruout. Then the BG shot the clerk, the clerk fell and the BG reached across the counter and shot downwards at the clerk, emptying his gun. The c-store clerk died. He did nothing to provoke the BG. The entire incident was captured by the c-store TV camera, including audio. It was sick.

In another incident a clerk was shot to death in a similar manner, this was a real nice guy that I knew slightly from being a customer in his store.

Statistics can be against this kind of senseless violent homicide occuring but if I were at either place (and I could have been) and not tried to stop the murders, I would have a hard time living with myself.

If I can't try to help an innocent person who is clearly at peril, what am I worth? I am worth nothing.
 
Recall a c-store clerk who was robbed, he handed over the money, was docile thruout. Then the BG shot the clerk, the clerk fell and the BG reached across the counter and shot downwards at the clerk, emptying his gun. The c-store clerk died. He did nothing to provoke the BG. The entire incident was captured by the c-store TV camera, including audio. It was sick.
Click to expand...

Seaman, As you know the odds are extremely low for the bad guy to even fire much less kill the clerk.

Statistics can be against this kind of senseless violent homicide occuring but if I were at either place (and I could have been) and not tried to stop the murders, I would have a hard time living with myself.
Click to expand...

What kind of a time living with yourself would you have had you interveined and the clerk got shot in the exchange?

If I can't try to help an innocent person who is clearly at peril, what am I worth? I am worth nothing.
Click to expand...

All good people would offer someone in trouble a helping hand. My point is that statistics say in this scenario you would be moving them from the frying pan and into the fire. Introducing gunfire to this scenario cannot help EXCEPT in the most extreme of circumstances. Those being an instant stop by you or if it prevents the eventual murder of the clerk. Both extremely rare indeed.
 
If you have a hard time living with yourself - that can be easily dealt with by a psychologist. We have quite good stress disorder treatments.

Of course, you have to be alive to deal with such. So you would rather be dead than suffer some anxiety?

Many folks deal with terrible stress and failures due to their own actions and get beyond it.

Thus, one should read up a bit on the psychological and social consequences of a shooting. I saw Marty Hayes discuss that on TV a bit ago. We discuss that at higher end tactical conferences. A knowledgeable SD shooter should be aware of such just as you need to be aware of legal consequences. We did a study on such a couple of years ago that is making into some police psych. text books.
 
Cops are not immune to post shooting stress either; training to shoot other humans while making decisions on which to base said shooting can be difficult. Bravado in such a scenario as listed above is one thing; dropping the hammer is another entirely. There are lots of cops out there that have been removed/removed themselves from service after a fully justifiable shoot because wanting to kill another human being is not natural. Now imagine someone with no training doing it, or worse trying it and hitting the wrong target. Even if cleared, a long road can be expected afterwards. Stress central!

CCW'ing and off duty carry are huge responsibilities. All we can hope for is training physically and mentally to do the right thing in each persons unexpected minute or so in the box.
 
Simply not knowing if the BG reads statistical data, is sane, insane or whatever is going to prompt me to action. I'm going to draw and fire if possible.
People are often murdered in these situations even if "statistics" are largely against this occurance.
I've been robbed at gunpoint, when I was 15 and unarmed, and the BG was shaking so badly I thought he would shoot me accidentally. These are not the type of people I will trust with my life if I can help it even if some statistician says I should.
 
In this case, being armed with a gun definitely makes a difference in the choice I would make because choices are based on the options that are available. I'm pretty sure that I could deal with killing somebody (potentially in the process of stopping the threat) in order to save somebody else better than I could allowing somebody to be killed by my inaction. I think the latter would haunt me for the rest of my life, to tell you the truth, and rightly so. As for that other somebody--the criminal--they had a choice whether to threaten the cashier's life, and they made the wrong choice, so whatever happens to them, they asked for it.

I realize that the foregoing may seem like vigilantism to some, but it's really just the product of a narrowly-defined scenario in which only one person can make a difference. I believe it would be considered legally justified homicide (if the bad guy dies) in most if not all states, and there's a reason for this--people have the right to defend themselves and others from imminent deadly threats using lethal force.

As for the bad guy pulling the trigger in response to a head shot, I've seen several videos of hostage shots being taken and read accounts of other such incidents, and I don't recall any instances of triggers being pulled reflexively. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, but as far as I know it hasn't been proven, while there have been cases of fully compliant robbery victims being killed after the robbery, and it stands to reason that the risk would be greater for those who resist in any way.
 
Microgunner said:
People are often murdered in these situations even if "statistics" are largely against this occurance.
Click to expand...

For that matter, statistics are also against any of us ever needing to own a gun for defense at all, but that doesn't seem to stop us from preparing for the worst case. That's because if and when it actually happens to one of us, the "statistic" then becomes 100%, and we need a gun right now--the gun we would not have if we had listened to statisticians or anti-gunners.

Even if the cashier in this example would most likely survive unscathed if we did nothing, I'd do whatever I could in order to improve their chances as well as my own. If that means quietly bushwhacking the bad guy from behind with a well-aimed shot to the head, then that's what I'd do.
 
I know in my state the law is "stand in their shoes." If they are in danger of being shot then I can kill them legally and the state will pay for my court fees
Click to expand...

That is NOT what the law says.

The state is not going to pay your legal costs.

IF a civil suite is brought against you, and the court decides you acted within the law, the plaintiff is going to pay.
 
Personally, I think I would shoot. I would not want to live with being a witness to a murder that I could have stopped.

I was told that Gun Site teaches that the typical physiological effect of being shot in the head is for the bad guy to raise his gun. If he shoots, the bullet goes into the ceiling. Anyone else hear/teach this?
 
Simply not knowing if the BG reads statistical data, is sane, insane or whatever is going to prompt me to action. I'm going to draw and fire if possible.
Click to expand...

You of all people (considering the shooting in your family) should realize that talking about taking a bad guy out quickly and actually hitting the upper spinal cord or brain to do so are two different beasts. Sure I shoot great and can hit very tiny objects pretty fast however that is at the range, against a non hostile target, which is motionless or motion predictable, with nobody's life hanging in the balance (talk about a pressure shot).

One thing is almost guaranteed if I introduce my gun there will very likely be a gunfight.

If I prepare but hold up remaining invisible there will likely NOT be a gunfight.

That is what we are facing. IMO riding the stats is a far better course of action than almost guaranteing a shootout.

If the clerk gets shot then start shooting. Sucks for the clerk at that point. If the clerk gets shot because you started the shooting and couldn't finish it quickly thats gonna suck for both of you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top