Uncle Malice
New member
And the lockup delay is LOOOOONG on both the P320 and VP9. The M&P unlocks almost instantly. Not sure how much that really matters, but I've always heard the longer the better. *shrug*
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VP9, M&P9 or?
- Thread starter P-990
- Start date
You cannot properly judge a trigger without shooting the gun. Period!
I'm going to disagree with you to an extent. I would say you won't know the whole story till you fire it, but there aren't many guns where I've been like, "This trigger sucks", and then shot it and been like, "I was completely wrong!" When you've shot for a while there are certain aspects you know that you yourself favor (I'm sure you've encountered the same). That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to shoot all triggers reasonably well, but preferences arise. Dry firing a pistol will help you realize if the potential for that affinity is there. Now in shooting it the recoil characteristics or whatnot may be wrong and it doesn't work for you, but some indicators are better than none.
IMightBeWrong
New member
For me the VP9 is pretty much as close to perfection as it gets. I've not owned an M&P but I have been able to shoot one and owned many Glocks as well as a PPQ. For the the VP9 is just right on so many levels.
The VP9 has a better texture. Ergonomics are subjective but I think most people will find the VP9 ergos better also. Having fired a friend's M&P I found that the gun slipped in my hands too much. I also had this issue with the PPQ as the texture just wasn't very aggressive.
Like Uncle Malice points out, the VP9 also doesn't need any trigger work out of the box. I love the trigger. I actually even prefer it to the PPQ's trigger, but both are excellent in only slightly different ways. The M&P trigger has gotten better from the factory than it was when the firearm first came out but still leaves a bit to be desired.
My only complaint with the VP9 is looks-based. I think the firearm looks outstanding overall, but I would like to see the slide stop on the right side of the firearm look the same as it does on the left. It just seems odd to me that there's a long lever on one side with a shorter lever on the other.
EDIT: I may need to take another look at the P320. My first impression of one in person was actually very negative. I just felt that it was a slap-in-the-face to take the P250, which I never liked one bit, and convert it to a striker. The trigger didn't feel as crisp to me as either the PPQ or the VP9 either. With that said, it may just have been my own bias keeping me from being able to appreciate the firearm. I'm sort of of the mind that if it's not a Classic SIG, I don't care for it.
The VP9 has a better texture. Ergonomics are subjective but I think most people will find the VP9 ergos better also. Having fired a friend's M&P I found that the gun slipped in my hands too much. I also had this issue with the PPQ as the texture just wasn't very aggressive.
Like Uncle Malice points out, the VP9 also doesn't need any trigger work out of the box. I love the trigger. I actually even prefer it to the PPQ's trigger, but both are excellent in only slightly different ways. The M&P trigger has gotten better from the factory than it was when the firearm first came out but still leaves a bit to be desired.
My only complaint with the VP9 is looks-based. I think the firearm looks outstanding overall, but I would like to see the slide stop on the right side of the firearm look the same as it does on the left. It just seems odd to me that there's a long lever on one side with a shorter lever on the other.
EDIT: I may need to take another look at the P320. My first impression of one in person was actually very negative. I just felt that it was a slap-in-the-face to take the P250, which I never liked one bit, and convert it to a striker. The trigger didn't feel as crisp to me as either the PPQ or the VP9 either. With that said, it may just have been my own bias keeping me from being able to appreciate the firearm. I'm sort of of the mind that if it's not a Classic SIG, I don't care for it.
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IMightBeWrong
New member
Uncle Malice:
"I sold my P30 shortly after buying the VP9."
I remember when the VP9 first came out and you had taken a look at one you didn't feel that it was built to the same standard as the P30. I disagreed and had both for a short time and then sold my P30 as well. Glad to see you changed your mind!
I actually feel the VP9 is a better made firearm overall than the P30. Better trigger, the grip texture is not as rough on the hip when carried IWB, and the slide is far better fit to the frame. Give a P30 a shake and it rattles pretty loud. The VP9 barely makes a sound. Of course, the quality of materials that went into the firearm is just as good as it is with any other HK. It's a wonderful pistol.
"I sold my P30 shortly after buying the VP9."
I remember when the VP9 first came out and you had taken a look at one you didn't feel that it was built to the same standard as the P30. I disagreed and had both for a short time and then sold my P30 as well. Glad to see you changed your mind!
I actually feel the VP9 is a better made firearm overall than the P30. Better trigger, the grip texture is not as rough on the hip when carried IWB, and the slide is far better fit to the frame. Give a P30 a shake and it rattles pretty loud. The VP9 barely makes a sound. Of course, the quality of materials that went into the firearm is just as good as it is with any other HK. It's a wonderful pistol.
Uncle Malice
New member
Yep. I love the VP9. I can't say I echo your sentiment about the P30 slide to frame fit, mine was also very tight as is the VP9. I do agree though about the texture. When I first picked it up, I didn't like it as much, but it's definitely easier to carry.
I will say taking a look at the P320 again is probably a good idea. I also have had a hard time liking Sigs that are not the classic line.... and the first time I tried out a P320 (last July) I came away relatively unimpressed. This was also before I got the VP9.
Falling in love with the VP9 is really what made me want to get the P320. After seeing so many comparisons between the two and somewhat equal result of those who thought were the winner, I just had to try one for myself. Whether the P320 is better than the VP9 or almost as good... it's definitely gotta be a great gun either way, right?
I've been fondling it all evening and getting used to the trigger. I already ordered the Heinie SlantPro's for it so it will match my VP9 sights and I can really give them a fair comparison. I also have another case of 124gr 9mm on the way.
A little bit of a rolling creep to the trigger and just a little bit heavier than I would like, but overall it's very good. It does have less travel than the VP9. Take up is very short. This may be the reason for the slightly heavier trigger. I can really see some potential here though. I've already emailed Robert Burke about his P320 action job. If he can lighten it up to 4.5-5lbs(as advertised) and work on the creep before the break.... this thing will blow away any other striker trigger. Not saying that it NEEDS a trigger job... but with the way it feels out of box, I can really see where a little bit of work would really put it over the edge.
From only dry fire testing, I can see why people flip flop on whether the VP9 or P320 has the better trigger. Each one has some features that I prefer over the other. The bore axis doesn't bother me but I guess we'll have to confirm that during live fire (hopefully tomorrow).
The P320 compact feels a lot like a polymer framed, single action only version of the P229 E2 with no safety. That's my take on it at this time.
I will say taking a look at the P320 again is probably a good idea. I also have had a hard time liking Sigs that are not the classic line.... and the first time I tried out a P320 (last July) I came away relatively unimpressed. This was also before I got the VP9.
Falling in love with the VP9 is really what made me want to get the P320. After seeing so many comparisons between the two and somewhat equal result of those who thought were the winner, I just had to try one for myself. Whether the P320 is better than the VP9 or almost as good... it's definitely gotta be a great gun either way, right?
I've been fondling it all evening and getting used to the trigger. I already ordered the Heinie SlantPro's for it so it will match my VP9 sights and I can really give them a fair comparison. I also have another case of 124gr 9mm on the way.
A little bit of a rolling creep to the trigger and just a little bit heavier than I would like, but overall it's very good. It does have less travel than the VP9. Take up is very short. This may be the reason for the slightly heavier trigger. I can really see some potential here though. I've already emailed Robert Burke about his P320 action job. If he can lighten it up to 4.5-5lbs(as advertised) and work on the creep before the break.... this thing will blow away any other striker trigger. Not saying that it NEEDS a trigger job... but with the way it feels out of box, I can really see where a little bit of work would really put it over the edge.
From only dry fire testing, I can see why people flip flop on whether the VP9 or P320 has the better trigger. Each one has some features that I prefer over the other. The bore axis doesn't bother me but I guess we'll have to confirm that during live fire (hopefully tomorrow).
The P320 compact feels a lot like a polymer framed, single action only version of the P229 E2 with no safety. That's my take on it at this time.
Uncle Malice
New member
One other comment to make on the P320 that I'm noticing as I sit here dry firing and fondling the gun.
The take-down lever on the P320 is a little bit thick. At first, it seemed awkwardly large compared to those on the classic series Sigs or the VP9/M&P/etc.
What I have noticed though, is it's located in a perfect position for my support hand thumb to rest with plenty of purchase to actually apply pressure to it, effectively using it in a similar fashion to the classic 1911 'gas pedal' thumb rest. I suspect this will help mitigate any potential muzzle rise due to that slightly higher bore axis.
Very interested to see how that works out tomorrow.
The take-down lever on the P320 is a little bit thick. At first, it seemed awkwardly large compared to those on the classic series Sigs or the VP9/M&P/etc.
What I have noticed though, is it's located in a perfect position for my support hand thumb to rest with plenty of purchase to actually apply pressure to it, effectively using it in a similar fashion to the classic 1911 'gas pedal' thumb rest. I suspect this will help mitigate any potential muzzle rise due to that slightly higher bore axis.
Very interested to see how that works out tomorrow.
Interesting thoughts and discussion so far. I may have to find a shop with a SIG 320 in stock this weekend. I swung into the shop that had a VP9 tonight, to find out they did not have one in currently. They did have a plain-Jane M&P and a Gen 4 Glock 19. I can't say I've completely ruled out the mid-size Glock yet, especially with the grip-reduction on the Gen 4 models.
Currently the VP9 is still holding the lead position, with the M&P and Gen 4 Glock 19 coming in second not too far off. The easy availability of parts and accessories for those two is definitely a weighing factor after checking for magazines for the HK online. I have about a dozen Glock 17 magazines on hand, from neutered AWB-era 10-rounders to the 33-round sticks and want at least 5-6 standard capacity for whatever I pick up. (Possibly a trait from coming up during the AWB; I turned 21 when the Federal ban sunset.)
Still reading, researching and listening, while deciding exactly what I will be doing with a new pistol. I've put 15k rounds through my 17, which is making it tough to decide to stop drinking the Kool Aid and try something different.
Currently the VP9 is still holding the lead position, with the M&P and Gen 4 Glock 19 coming in second not too far off. The easy availability of parts and accessories for those two is definitely a weighing factor after checking for magazines for the HK online. I have about a dozen Glock 17 magazines on hand, from neutered AWB-era 10-rounders to the 33-round sticks and want at least 5-6 standard capacity for whatever I pick up. (Possibly a trait from coming up during the AWB; I turned 21 when the Federal ban sunset.)
Still reading, researching and listening, while deciding exactly what I will be doing with a new pistol. I've put 15k rounds through my 17, which is making it tough to decide to stop drinking the Kool Aid and try something different.
I actually feel the VP9 is a better made firearm overall than the P30. Better trigger, the grip texture is not as rough on the hip when carried IWB, and the slide is far better fit to the frame. Give a P30 a shake and it rattles pretty loud. The VP9 barely makes a sound. Of course, the quality of materials that went into the firearm is just as good as it is with any other HK. It's a wonderful pistol.
In agreement with Uncle Malice, I found my P30s as tight as any VP9s I've handled. More so I frankly think slide to frame fit is relatively unimportant. Slide to barrel fit is where my experience has shown accuracy to come from.
The take-down lever on the P320 is a little bit thick. At first, it seemed awkwardly large compared to those on the classic series Sigs or the VP9/M&P/etc.
I tried using it as a gas pedal and found that instead it just poked into my thumb, but I've got stubby thumbs. I wouldn't mind a slimmer version myself. It does take some effort to rotate the level so I get that a tiny lever wouldn't work, but it's a bit much IMO.
IMightBeWrong
New member
This video actually displays the difference side by side in slide/frame fit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPZqC5ZXPTo
And I agree that it does not make a real difference in accuracy, but it does make the firearm feel more sturdy and well put together when there is less rattle. I only really brought it up because of concerns posted in the past (other thread somewhere) about the VP9 not being built to the same standard as the P30. I find that it is built just as well as the P30 if not a little bit better since it feels a little more solid and since the trigger lends itself to accurate shooting much more in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPZqC5ZXPTo
And I agree that it does not make a real difference in accuracy, but it does make the firearm feel more sturdy and well put together when there is less rattle. I only really brought it up because of concerns posted in the past (other thread somewhere) about the VP9 not being built to the same standard as the P30. I find that it is built just as well as the P30 if not a little bit better since it feels a little more solid and since the trigger lends itself to accurate shooting much more in my opinion.
Uncle Malice
New member
This video actually displays the difference side by side in slide/frame fit:
The rattle in the video is the right side slide release lever, not the slide to frame fit.
I'd take the VP-9 over the M&P which is a pretty good model as well. I much prefer the magazine release paddles compared to the button style. The VP also offers a higher level of grip adjustability and better out of the box trigger.
As to the "or" choices. Other very good models would be the Walther PPQ, P-99 AS, Sig 320 and Steyr's M9-A1 and L9-A1. The PPQ for me is extremely close to the VP-9 and I'd take PPQ over the VP though. The Steyr's may have the best trigger in terms of pull weight, crisp break, lack of take up, and trigger shoe feel of any polymer striker fired model. They also have one of the lowest muzzle flip/recoil due to their balance, grip location, and bore axis.
The FNH FNS is also worth a look.
As to the "or" choices. Other very good models would be the Walther PPQ, P-99 AS, Sig 320 and Steyr's M9-A1 and L9-A1. The PPQ for me is extremely close to the VP-9 and I'd take PPQ over the VP though. The Steyr's may have the best trigger in terms of pull weight, crisp break, lack of take up, and trigger shoe feel of any polymer striker fired model. They also have one of the lowest muzzle flip/recoil due to their balance, grip location, and bore axis.
The FNH FNS is also worth a look.
Gotta love all of the other off topic suggestions.
Conversations evolve over time and the OP seemed interested in the other suggestions mentioned.
Conversations evolve over time and the OP seemed interested in the other suggestions mentioned.
No, that isn't what happens.
Guy posts asking for help deciding between two pistols and every 19 year old on the internet, instead, posts about the one he just read about in GUNS magazine.
Lol. The derision that comes with age eh? We can't all be as mature as you I suppose (though I wish I was still 19 at times).No, that isn't what happens.
Guy posts asking for help deciding between two pistols and every 19 year old on the internet, instead, posts about the one he just read about in GUNS magazine.
The OP hasn't complained and frankly that's whose opinion matters. Plenty of folks answered his direct question but others mentioned possible alternatives too. Hardly worth complaining.
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Uncle Malice
New member
Lol. The derision that comes with age eh? We can't all be as mature as you I suppose (though I wish I was still 19 at times).
The OP hasn't complained and frankly that's whose opinion matters. Plenty of folks answered his direct question but others mentioned possible alternatives too. Hardly worth complaining.
Seriously.
The point of including additional suggestions on top of the recommendation between the two choices is to possibly introduce the OP to other choices which may have even been overlooked originally.
It adds to the substance and value to the conversation to discuss guns of a similar type and price point. Then here you come throwing around insults as if you're the only one with any experience. Give me a break.