Visually Assessing Threats

First of all, WA's definition of "Hinky" and mine are similar. Sometimes it's hard to even put a finger on why something you see is "hinky" but you know it when you see it.

I tend to observe people who are observing other people.
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+1 on this too.

Follow the eyes. I pay attention to those who are paying attention. Especially if they are paying too much attention to me.
 
rantingredneck said:
but you know it when you see it
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This is why I use "turn-about" as a dating postulate. The actual fact is, no you don't know, and that fact might get someone killed.

For example, in my travels I met a motorcycle club. All of them were armed, most with two handguns. The majority had knives or some degree of martial arts training.

They looked scruffy, most of them rode customized Harleys, and if you acted up, they would all be on you. They were in fact, a very dangerous group of people. And I had I not ridden with them, I might have feared them.

They were The Blue Knights MC.

Now, one of the members here, Covert Mission, doesn't know the difference between an Angel and the CMA. That's very normal, not many outside our circle do know.

And that goes across the board. If we were asked to describe a British secret agent, a gansta, a Mafia made-man, a 1% outlaw or a working cowboy, most of us would use many of the same adjectives--because most of what we know about these people come from fiction.

Do you know what a real biker looks like? Well, he wears a three piece Armani or Dior suit, he is college educated, he is called upon to reconstruct failing companies with his knowledge of finance, he's a Christian, he's been married for twenty-eight years and doesn't cheat, and he does not do street drugs. If you met him on the street, he would look like a banker. Oh, and he knows how to kill you with a shiv.

That's how I looked for three decades.

How's your "hinkie" radar doing now?
 
The reality is that if you mistakenly do something to piss of a Hell's Angel or Pagan or other one-percenter, they'll beat the cr*p out of you and possibly kill you. They might decide to do so just for the heck of it or to steal your bike.

I'm sure outlaw bikers can be polite. Many of them are also stone-cold killers.

If you choose to dress like one-percenter, that's your choice. I'll give you a very wide berth.
 
M1911, even I do that. The point of my side of the debate is letting the stereotypes dictate our actions.

I mentioned "working cowboys." Most people might mention spurs and a wad of "chaw." In Madison at the UW veterinary college, that cowboy probably has a doctorate in medicine.

And at the very center of my concerns is our discussion of firearms and enumerated rights. I think we pass judgement on too many folks who are none of our concern.
 
How's your "hinkie" radar doing now?
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Look beyond the motorcycle stuff for a minute. I know it's got your dander up but set it aside.

Read what I wrote.

Sometimes you just get a feeling about someone, due to their behavior, not appearance (I could care less about appearance, I look at behavior). Sometimes it may just be something you can't put your finger on. When I get that feeling I decide it's time to be somewhere else.

There have been times where I've told my wife "lets go" when we're in a shopping mall or store, because of how someone was acting. She knows me well enough to know that when I say "let's go" we go. I don't care if Tide Detergent is on sale or not. :D.
 
rantingredneck said:
I know it's got your dander up but set it aside.
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Actually, it's not. However this is one area where I can contribute. As you know, I know absolutely nothing about shotguns.

I do know about stereotypes. During Harley's 100th Anniversary, I saw a sign outside a hotel that said "Bikers Welcome." I mentioned to my wife that this sign was the first I'd ever seen in over thirty years.

And I believe turn-about is a good tool. For example, we often debate our rights in being denied access to certain stores while armed. We get edgy when we see signs that say "No Firearms Allowed." And our collective dander is up because at the center of that view is the assumption that all firearms owners are reckless hillbillies.

Any court or lawyer will tell you that an eye witness is the worst evidence used in a trial. Most people cannot judge distance, and they see what they want to see.

This idea of "hinkie radar" is wrong more times than it is right. And no matter how learned a cop is in "going with his gut," he still has to produce evidence. You still have to get probable cause for a subpoena.

Most of us are not trained as professionals. Few of us are sworn officers. And truth be told none of us should use a stereotype and "hinkie radar" to do anything but leave the area, as you correctly implied.

You are not John Wayne or an avenging angel. Your opinion of my jacket and the way I dip a hotdog in ketchup when among friends means less than nothing to me.

Now, I don't mean that in a negative way. If you ask me a question or need my opinion, then you should be prepared for the honest rendition. I listen to you on the subject of shotguns because I need knowledge when I have little.

But this is one topic where we should all engage discussion with a clear head. And frankly, I don't think I would acting like a good TFL forum member if I didn't point out the down-side of this radar issue. Guessing wrong or acting like a showboater can get you in trouble.
 
Tourist, I think you're right on in page 2.

But there's something you said earlier in the thread that makes me uneasy:

The eyes are the windows to the soul.
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I dont want to extrapolate on something you did not say but...

...if someone is trying to engage eye contact at random in a public place he becomes the one that I need to be careful about. More so if he is dressed like the guy that dont want to be noticed...
 
Oli, I stand by what I said. Obviously I am not going to ignore something that is clearly a need for condition orange. However, a lifestyle where condition yellow is a learned behavior seems to be more prudent.

And, BTW, this has been an excellent thread. We all live this every minute we are out in the world.

But let's expand on that "eyes and soul" comment. If I'm eating that hotdog and laughing, you have no real provocation to go to orange.

However if a guy in a nice suit starts reacting to every move you make, you should adjust to orange. Could be a cop with a vague description of a suspect, (I'm 5'11," white, average hair length, typical 'boomer moustache--in other words, the description of every serial killer on CSI) or the guy could be a Mafia hitman sent by a hostile wife.

For our debate, the guy in the suit is probably a more real threat. A more indepth assessment is the better choice rather than a snap decision based on a stereotype.

Besides, I'm too old for that "cloak and dagger" stuff. If I have a beef with you, I'll come and tell you. Stalking your restaurant seems like such a waste of time on a sunny day for riding. :D
 
haha, fair enough.

I'm a northern frog, excuse me if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is this: we try to be 'aware' so we dont get in trouble in the first place. But, there are things we might do in the process that will do exactly the opposite. Being too aggressive with 'eye contact' is one of them.

I dont say and dont think you do it. It's just for the record, it's something to think about.
 
Oli, but you mention a good point. If you're a younger guy and the fellas here tell you to be vigilant with your CCW responsibilities you take it as very serious advice.

I walk into a restaurant, sweep the place in a gaze, find an area where I can see the door and never think of the topic again. Foremost, I like to eat, however, I'm not a sensei or a guru or a mercenary or a hitman. I'm a hungry guy with his wife who needs realistic safety and security.

Clearly, there's a tipping point. In that regard, I look to the writing of Col. Jeff Cooper and the entire pragmatic issue of color codes. It's viable, it works, it's a good reminder of your needs and it defines what moves you should--or shouldn't--take in public.

Additionally, color codes snap me back to reality if I start falling for stereotypes.
 
Tourist

Again read what I wrote.

I'm not talking about the way people are dressed. I don't care if you're wearing a purple tutu.

If you're wearing a purplue tutu and following me around Walmart while having a discussion with someone I can't see though, then we may have a problem :D.

I think you and I agree on more than we disagree here, though. Please understand though that my definition of "hinky" relies on behavior, not appearance.

I watch others actions and more importantly how they react to me.

An example:

If I'm walking down the street and someone crosses the street on an intercept course with me, I'll likely cross the street before they get to me.

Another example:

If I'm in a convenience store and I see someone acting shifty, fidgety, nervous, etc. or if I see behavior that could be interpreted as "casing". I leave. Nothing in that convenience store is worth me being there when the feces strikes the air circulation device.

I could care less whether that person is white, black, red, brown, yellow, or polka dotted. I could care less whether they're dressed as a biker or a hare krishna. I look at what they are doing.


I'm not going to draw down on you for wearing biker garb as I'm hoping you wouldn't on me for wearing Realtree All Purpose.

Again. Look beyond the appearance stuff. That's what I'm saying. I can't speak for others.
 
An actual example:

Last Thursday I was on my way home from the range and stopped off for some milk and bread at the local convenience store. This place is out in the country, so it's not your typical "stop n rob" kinda place.

It had been cool earlier in the day but was now downright warm. I refused to put my jacket on just to go in the convenience store for bread and milk so I resigned myself to open carry for a moment.

As I was inside the store I notice another fellow, whose Harley was parked outside was also open carrying. (he had a Smith snubby, I had a Ruger).

I paid him no more attention after that. I paid more attention to the young fellow who kept eyeballing the Biker fellows weapon and mine. When the young guy got in line behind me at the register I turned my body so that my gun side was away from him. Did I think he was actually gonna snatch my weapon? Not really. Was it prudent to move since he was so fixated on it? I think so. Was the hinkiness such that I felt the need to leave my bread and milk there and go home? Not really.
 
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No, I think your actions were prudent--except for one of them.

You define the place as a "stop n' rob." I don't know if you're using a humorous epithet, or if the place was the magnet for past crimes. If there were crimes in the past, a jug of milk is hardly worth the risk.

As for the Harley, you darn near have to be a doctor, a professor or a hobbyist forum owner to afford a Harley. Knowing what I do about payments and repairs, my guess is that you ran into a dentist who likes leather.

As for firearm retention, it is your gun, and you are responsible for any and all actions and rounds fired while the firearm is in your care. For example, I can be arrested and sued even if I'm not home. If I leave a pistol out in the open, and a teenage cat burglar blows his head off, I'm still rsponsible.

I'm not sure that the law would care much if the pistol was snatched by a biker or a used car salesman.

Personally, and from experience, the used car salesman is a lot more bloodthirsty. :D

Edit: wearing a purplue tutu--I hit the gym everyday and I have lovely legs. If anyone could pull off that look and still gig an attacker with a knife, it's me.
 
You define the place as a "stop n' rob." I don't know if you're using a humorous epithet, or if the place was the magnet for past crimes. If there were crimes in the past, a jug of milk is hardly worth the risk.
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No, I specifically said it's not your typical stop n rob.

Its actually called the Saxapahaw General Store.

Say that three times fast :D.

EDITED TO ADD:

I also should have mentioned that the kid eyeing the firearms was about a buck ten soaking wet and I go about 230 on a good day. The biker fellow also looked like he wasn't in the mood to have his gun snatched or have my snatched gun used on him. His presence was comforting. :D.
 
Edit: wearing a purplue tutu--I hit the gym everyday and I have lovely legs. If anyone could pull off that look and still gig an attacker with a knife, it's me.
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Thanx, I could have gone all day without that visual.:eek:...even though it did give me a good laugh.;)
 
Interesting thread, although I think a number of you are trying to assess a potential threat based only on one or two aspects. In reality, it's best to assess the totality of the circumstances.

I know BillCA is talking about visual cues from people, but let's expand that a bit, as the same person exhibiting the same cues will trigger alarms to a degree that's determined by the surrounding environment or circumstances.

In other words, a highly tattooed Hispanic male looking your way may not raise your condition to orange during lunch hour on Rodeo Drive, but that same person at night and right smack in the middle of MS-13 turf most probably will.

Let's assign this a points system: 80-100 points puts you in condition red, 60-80, orange, and so on.

Location: Upscale mall in Upper Arlington, Ohio = 1 point. Certain areas in East Cleveland, OH = 9 points.

Time of day / Lighting: High noon = 2 points. Well lit area at night = 4 points. Dark or poorly lighted urban area = 8 points.

Clothing: Business suit = 2 points. Hoodie with gang graffiti on it = 9 points.

And don't discount that "6th sense" that a lot of folks have. I believe that a "6th sense" is your subconscious analyzing all of the above when your conscious mind is centered on other things.

And so on. These are just for the sake of the discussion, but you get what I mean. Add up the total number of points to determine the proper "condition".

Now the problem with centering your attention on only one or two factors is a form of tunnel vision. When you focus too much on a person's eyes or dress, for example, other clues that might make a critical difference go by the wayside.

They were The Blue Knights MC.
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There's probably some here who aren't familiar with them, Tourist. To all, the Blue Knights are a nationwide motorcycle club made up exclusively of commissioned law enforcement officers. (And just for trivia's sake, Tourist, did you know there is a nationwide motorcycle club made up of retired LEO's? Know what they call themselves? The Retreads :D. (seriously!))
 
Threats

Well I'm guilty of using my peripheral vision when someone is behind me so I can check them out without being to obvious. Clenched fists of someon approaching is usually a good sign. Alot of cops have tatoos but most departments dont allow them to go below sleeve length, slightly above the elbow. I guess the biggest point you make is it can be anyone. Nowdays everyone has a gun even kids, and Ive seen old ladies and other women who conceal knives and arent afraid to use them. So it could be your typical gangster or the crazy old lady that missed her meds that morning. Usually you can tell if someone is just trying to get attention or they are looking for a fight. Watch out for the quiet ones, theyre probably going to rob you. The best way is just not to put yourself in the position of being a victim. Dont walk down any dark alleys alone, if you know what I mean. The best defense is surprise, if you notice someone following you or staring you down, dont let them know you noticed. Most of the time they're looking for an easy victim, they dont want to make it difficult. Hope it helps.
 
rantingredneck said:
His (the biker's) presence was comforting.
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I had to read that a few times to actually comprehend what I was seeing.:eek: That shows that stereotypes are incorrect.

Capt Charlie Clothing said:
Business suit = 2 points. Hoodie with gang graffiti on it = 9 points.
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In that case, my friend, I could have gotten closer to you than the wannabee. As you know, I wore business suits.

SilentHitz said:
a purplue tutu--Thanx, I could have gone all day without that visual.
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Sorry to hurl your cornflakes. But consider this: you have to have a real grip on your masculinity to wear a purple tutu in a gun forum.:p
 
This is about the time that a good laugh is needed. By the end of the day, the OP--in this case BillCa--and I are still allies, we just are on different sides of the debate. That's the point of a forum.

The biggest benefit this particular thread has, in my opinion, was that this was not a cut and dried issue. Instead we had factions from all walks of life providing their slant. In that case, I had a blast of a good time.

And hopefully, we learned a few things. There is no magic devining rod on this issue. Clearly, making condition yellow a part of your regimen while solidly keeping your fears in check will provide real gains in safety and security. A paranoid loose cannon does no one any real good.

I can't wait for the next good debate.
 
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