Visually Assessing Threats

The eyes are the windows to the soul.
Tourist has the right idea. It doesn't matter if someone is wearing a suit, "gangsta" clothing, or just jeans and a T-shirt. You can't tell a predator by their clothing, but you can almost always tell by their demeanor, and the look in their eyes. No, I can't read minds, but I can sure as hell tell if someone is sizing me (or someone else) up to see if they are an easy target. It can be as innocent as someone who just shoplifted and is wondering if you're undercover, or as serious as a predator looking for their next victim. There are plenty of "wolves in sheep's clothing"...don't be fooled by looks alone.
 
SilentHitz said:
don't be fooled by looks alone

Thank you, sir. Your post was polite and succinct.

I still would like to see the look on Pilot's face if he was attacked, screamed for help and found me coming to his rescue.

Would he say to me, "Sorry, Tourist, no thanks."
 
Wildalaska said:
Two black kids horseplaying on a basketball Court are not hinky. One black kid wearing a hoody, loitering outside a conveneince store at 3am and continually touching his waist is hinky.

Not to be picky, but take the word "black" out of there and you have a great example of being "hinky". I don't know about up your way, but there are *plenty* of hinky people around these parts, of every color.
 
The villages I frequent are as different as can be, . . . all the way from a fast growing, persnooty, college town, . . . to a couple of blue collar, union has beens, . . . to an agrarian little soy bean/corn town.

As such they all offer different flavors of bg's. I have given up looking for profile types, . . . and have opted to just keep a close lookout on who and what is in or about to be in my 20 ft personal space circle. Doing so makes life much easier for me.

Spot a couple of baddies, . . . walk around them, . . . always off side if possible. Got a group of neanderthal youngsters up ahead, . . . other side of the street/aisle/etc. Avoidance is the name for me.

I generally am on a relaxed orange alert, . . . allowing my vision and my personal bearing to be enough to send most bg's some other way, . . . by spotting potential trouble spots and avoiding them like the plague. But just like it has been already mentioned, . . . eye to eye contact and a sound demeanor can turn the tide from victim to "pass that dude, man".

It has worked so far.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Dwight55, you're probably right. When I found something that was about to hit the fan it was like "spidie sense" shouting at the top of its lungs. Everyone not on welfare heard the clarion call.

What still baffles me is the speed of an attack. If you don't sense it coming, but simply react to the motion, your goose is probably cooked.

Oy, and my wife is suburban girl. Over the years I've had to repeat many times that when confrontational politics have begun, to just step away, try not to grab my arms like a recalcitrant mother, because I'm going to slice the fool up while he's telling his life story.

Then again, she's never been hit.
 
Quote:
WA - Please define "hinkiness". Your definition may not match mine or others.

From an earlier post by meself

WAs Rule of Life 44 (U) 6

After training or extensive life experience, one recognizes a concept in people known as hinkiness, which concept is defined as a variety of factors that raise an awareness of potential danger. The factors that can render a person "hinky" include, but are not limited to, race, creed, colour, sex,ocupation, age, mode of dress, possessions, body language, time of day, geographic location and any other usual or unusual factor that alone, or in combination, make a reasonable observer concerned, suspicious, alarmed or alert.

Two black kids horseplaying on a basketball Court are not hinky. One black kid wearing a hoody, loitering outside a conveneince store at 3am and continually touching his waist is hinky.

WildweareontosoemthinghereyesAlaska TM

This is how I do it too.
 
I still would like to see the look on Pilot's face if he was attacked, screamed for help and found me coming to his rescue.
Maybe the same reaction at the sight of my sister. She wears leather when riding her Harley, and carries a 469 S&W...has tats too. :eek:
 
WA, perfect explanation of "hinkiness". That hinky feeling was put in us for a reason!;)

Some of you guys that look at tats, longhair, biker looking... please don't shoot me. I may look a little greasy and haggard and dirty from ridin' a ways. I too wear a Christian motorcycle ministry patch. I know to most, a back patch is a back patch, but please since you're paying such close attention to everything, look a little harder. Most bikers don't want a hassle any worse than anyone else. Me... I watch clean cut folks in suits..... just can't trust'em:eek:;)

I do profile like most.. I lean heavily on WA's hinkiness factor....

arkfeelinghinkywhenoutinpublictravler:D
 
Originally Posted by rb4browns
there is no reason to read my post and think I was talking to you. The question was legit as is my answer
Because it teaches error, especially to people who don't know the difference. I've lived in this city since 1968, and many of my clients are cops. Most of them are surprised that I'm a patch holder.

To that, what most people know about bikers come TV and the movies. Unless you've done something to threaten or antagonize a biker you are simply wallpaper. When I go a biker shop I don't "see" the citizens kicking tires.

And, of course, you could be dead wrong.

I was standing next to my bike once and I heard the sound of about fifty bikes with straight pipes. Out of nowhere came the wildest bunch of guys riding choppers you could imagine--right down to tons of chrome and tattoos.

As they sped by me, I saw their rags. They were CMA.

As you can well imagine, many younger guys come here. Chasing beer cans with a 1911 pistol is loads of fun. But let's not mislead them.

Some guys are going to read this read and unsnap their CCW pistols every time they see a customized Harley.

See Bill's definition of "hinkiness" and you will understand the context of my answer. Many, if not most bikers are lawyers and such trying to live out rebel fantasies on $40000 motorcycles, I understand that.

I also have known many black folks who dress in baggy clothes who are not in gangs.

The point is that dress is one factor I use in sizing up people. I'm really not worried (nor should you be) that the gentle readers of this forum will suddenly become gripped with terror at the sight of a harley riding dude because they read my post.

Cheers.
 
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rb4browns said:
the gentle readers of this forum will suddenly become gripped with terror at the sight of a harley riding dude

I don't think newbies will start doing anything just because they first read about it here.

However, it might confirm misconceptions they hold.

Let's face it, many people (myself included) come here for info based on the assumption that there are some very savvy hobbyists here with decades of experience. This also could cover our LEO members, our IPSC participants, and those who avidly study martial arts.

So when a professional hobbyist says, "There are reasons to fear bikers," or words to that affect, it confirms a negative feeling they might have.

As for "biker lawyers," you are right hands down. You can also throw in my favorite group, wannabees who are dentists. There are thousands of them in Dane County, where I live.

However, in the entire history of my MC, over a 35 year span, there are only 150 members.

In other words, if you're afraid of a guy in leather, you're probably afraid of a dentist.:D
 
We generally don't have a problem with motorcycle gangs around here. If you see a group of motorcycles together in these parts, they are usually just a group of people with the common interest of riding bikes.

What I watch for in my small community is the meth addicts. These individuals, I think, plague many small towns in rural areas. The days of the moonshiner or the guy growing pot in his backyard are just about gone. Those people never bothered anyone but the government anyway. The meth heads however, are a more dangerous sort.

Quick story: An aquaintance of mine recently went to Arkansas to hunt turkey in the Ozarks. His party was approached by a game warden and warned not to come in contact with any of the locals in the area even in an emergency. Apparently, the paranoia associated with the drug makes them dangerous.
 
First, to put the "biker" thing in perspective, let me say that I spent 20 years riding bikes - go-fast to touring bikes - and met a number of Harley riders who were simply rough gentlemen. My wife and I also took a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class and happened to be in the same class as Ralph "Sonny" Barger of Hells Angel's infamy and his wife Sharon. For all that's been written about Sonny, he was an absolute gentleman to everyone in the class and the biggest supporter of the most novice rider. If you met the man not wearing "biker" clothes, you'd think he was in construction or similar blue collar line.

This only illustrates that clothing and demeanor don't always tell you about the person's true character.

Boris Bush said:
Looking for a criminal is a bad idea. Look at everyone. Look at their pants, shirt, shoes, hands, face, hat, gender, eyes, way they walk and their level of alertness. Do a play by play like them guys on the glow box when football is on.

[Warning: I'm going to use some stereotypes and rude characterizations in the following, only to make a point.]

In a sense, yes. But by scanning over a group of people you mentally "dismiss" various types. For instance, if you're walking in/out of Wally World for your cheap 9mm ammo, you dismiss the Waddling Welfare Whales as well as the almost any "breeder" family group with a passle of young kids. The ones who look like grandparents aren't likely to pose a high risk and you can dismiss most fortyish looking males pushing a shopping cart.

Even the teens dressed in baggy clothes can be rendered a low risk if you see them accompanying their parents and younger siblings.

On the other hand, younger males between about 15 and 30 who don't seem to be purposefully heading into the store or who appear to be leaving the storefront without any purchases are suspicious to me.

A lone individual who seems to be paying a lot of attention to people walking by or keeps looking into the store as if to see the activity inside, gets my attention. Glancing around quickly is another red flag.

A group of younger people - who may be mixed genders - if they are "hanging out", dressed in similar styles and colors, that sets off my radar. And if several happen to look your way at about the same time, the boatswain's whistle goes off to set condition orange.

In public venues I tend to look at faces, body language and hands.

Faces - sometimes you can tell the shopper or average joe from the ones with intent to do something. Quick head movements, darting eyes, tense jaws signal a higher emotional state than your average person. Wild, wide open eyes may be a signal of an impending attack (or a desperate search for a restroom or lost child). Flaring nostrils (to breathe more) indicate an elevated risk of attack.

Body Language - their gait, shoulder position, speed of movement can all indicate someone moving purposefully or with assertiveness. In a crowded mall, someone hurrying to a shop may walk quickly, blading their body through the crowd. Someone trying to flee without running will drop their leading shoulder as if ready to "block" or shove someone out of the way. In a less crowded mall, someone walking briskly but on the balls of their feet like a prizefighter is likely closing in on their selected victim, espeically if they're not looking for, or taking, less resistive paths.

Hands - Hands will hurt you. Specifically, fists and objects held in the hands will hurt you. Where are his hands? What's in his hands? Because the bag he has doesn't look big or heavy, doesn't mean it can't be used as a distraction tool. If you can't see both hands be prepared to act quickly.
 
Excellent points Bill. Another guy to watch out for is the guy walking around a parking lot who doesn't seem to be going directly to his car. (zig-zagging through rows looking at/in other cars). Chances are he is up to no good.
 
ActivShooter,

Absolutely. This falls under the category of anyone who doesn't seem to be purposefully entering the building from the parking lot, or who leaves the store without any purchases and doesn't seem to be walking towards an intended destination.

Normally when someone comes out of a store and has forgotten where they parked they pause for a moment. This usually occurs between the exit curbside area and the beginning of the parking aisles. You'll see that look on their faces that says "You dips**t, you fogot where you parked." While they're looking around for their car.

Many retail stores have in-house security folks. If you see something suspicious and tell someone on staff "Get me your security people, fast." they usually call someone to see you. The retailer does not want bad PR or lost sales if something happens in their parking lot. Their security people can watch the person and call the PD if necessary.
 
I believe what we are discussing is "caution" not the justification of condition orange. In that debate, I'll reluctantly nod my head 'yes.' But with some very real hard and fast conditions.

My first trip out on a Saturday morning is the bike shop for free hot dogs or chili. I will also hang out with numerous others. We will congregate. Hey, guess what we're doing:

"the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

Now, put yourself in my shoes. I'm admiring someone's chrome or engine mods and I see some Junior John Wayne slip his hand inside his coat. I hear a 'snap' or the rip of velcro.

Now what do you think I'm going to do? Bet's off, folks. I'm go to verbally, and ernestly inform my little group that the guy behind us just unsnapped a pistol.

Now we're the ones who are going to be cautious.

As a fellow citizen, I have the right to assemble. If you don't consider the conditions something you can tolerate, than simply leave the area.

I also second BillCa's comment on bikers he has met. About three years ago we had two or three Angels at a club function at our clubhouse. I believe we drank beer and had a "Bikini Bike Wash."

But I debate this for one reason. If you can be wrong about me, then you can be also be wrong on the stimuli that produce condition orange. And that leads me to a much bigger problem.

That being the problem is you.

When you see meth dealers, Angels, muggers, bank hold-up men, Mafia mechanics and professional clowns at every intersection, it's not their fault--if they are there at all. You have to re-define your reaction to Cooper's color code of action.

Just pick up your groceries and leave the area. Let the bikers eat hotdogs.
 
Tourist,

Easy there bub. Rub yourself down with some lanacaine and desensitize a bit. No one is really declaring time to go ballistic.

There is another, older, thread that deals with the signals people give off just before they start a fight or an attack. That's not what we're discussing here.

My desire is to find out what methods other members use to identify people who are a potential threat. How do you pick one or two people out of a dozen or more that bear closer scrutiny?

If you enter your favorite grocery store about 11pm and there are about a dozen people, what kinds of things would cause you to heighten your awareness or slightly alter your plans? What would it be about the people themselves that would provide you the "clues"?

Oh... and let's exclude the obvious, like the guy moving from till to till emptying them into a bag. ;)

Oh... and Tourist... You've obviously never ridden a bike and kept your "clear" glasses in a Ray-Ban eyeglass case on your belt, have you? That snap sounds suspiciously like a holster snap. My ex's cell phone holder used a velcro strap to keep it from getting loose. :cool:
 
First off, I don't wear Ray Bans.:D

However, I think your response demonstrates my point. (BTW, I wasn't angry when I wrote the last post--just playing my favorite game of "turn-about.")

One of the things I've learned on boards like this is that the guys all feel they're the heroes and the good guys. However, taking a map of the USA, you'll find half of the states are blue. To 50% of the population firearms hobbyists are paranoid whack-jobs.

The concept of assessing is not a shift from yellow to orange. It's a commitment to a lifestyle. I sit in a restaurant in the position of the best visual advantage. I look at the crowd. Then I order a sandwich.

I'm not playing a uber game of Wolfenstein, I'm being aware. And ordering that sandwich.

The problem with some of the key points in this thread is that assessment has become a murky mix to approval. The guys in baggy pants might be musicians on their way to a gig. And as I have stated, those "bikers" might even be ministers on the way to a Bible class.

From there it's a banana-peel slip to who should be watched and why.

But there's a mirror to that idea that many firearms hobbyists do not wish to see. That being, to others, they are the ones to be watched. In fact, I've read quite a few threads in gun forums on "mall ninjas."

At the end of the day, it is not the job of a self-appointed hobbyist to judge my clothing, my mannerisms, my movements or even my political affiliation lapel pin.

In fact, we have discussed the word "hinkie." If I saw some mall ninja wandering around in poor fitting clothing using surveillance techniques to watch the crowd, I'd call the real police.
 
Every unknown person is a potential threat, especially in places where low lifes frequent like seedy bars, drug infested neighborhoods and large city down town areas.

Like the saying goes, "Be nice but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." :D
 
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