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violence in mcdonalds
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guitars and guns
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I respectfully disagree. The fact that the two women (and I use that term very loosely here) kept coming back demonstrates to be that this wasn't about proving a point or "teaching a lesson" but was an active attempt to kill, or at very least seriously injure the woman who was beaten. Because of this, I think the condition of "fear of death or grave bodily injury" would be fairly easily met and would, in my state at least, justify lethal force.
Also, a "fair fight" is something of sports and heroic fiction. Just because the two "women" in the video did not have any visible weapons, that does not mean that none were present. Getting a stabbed or shot in the middle of a fistfight is a very poor way to learn that someone else has a weapon. I will take no chances with two-legged animals and these two certainly meet that description.
As I said before, I'd shout a very loud verbal warning before shooting or pistol-whipping, but I'm not getting involved before I've got a weapon in my hand.
You make a very valid point and something to consider BUT.....
what if you brandished your weapon, gave verbal warning and they still came at you bearing no weapons at all? do you shoot them?
I guess it all depends widely on the laws of the state you are in.
I am going to class to get my CCW on the 30th and should learn the laws of TX there (I plan on asking LOTS of questions and studying on my own as well), but situations like this intrigue me. that's why I suggested hand to hand at first and only drawing (and maybe using) a firearm only if completely necessary to avoid legal repercussions.
It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.
The police are still reporting the victim as female. The claim that she is a he comes from the guy who shot the video, who's no longer commenting.
Absent the use of deadly force against the victim I probably wouldnt have gone to the gun. More likely I would have placed my body over the victim and taken the beating in order to protect her. It may have frustrated the perpetrators enough to leave... And I've taken a few beatings in my time... I'm not as fragile as the female victim.
Glenn
Glenn
Wildalaska
Moderator
So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound
WildcuriousAlaska ™©2002-2011
WildcuriousAlaska ™©2002-2011
WhiskeyTango
New member
Just found this while looking to see if there was a law in Colorado requiring someone to step in and help having been a witness to a crime such as this. I was unable to find anything to that effect, but, found this interesting...
It is illegal to assist a fugitive in any way. Accessory to Crime, CRS 18-8-105 Colorado Law states: "A person is an accessory to a crime if, with intent to hinder, delay or PREVENT the discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of another for the commission of a crime, he renders assistance to such person." This crime can be up to a Class 4 FELONY, punishable by up to 8 years in prison and/or a fine up to $500,000.00!
Taken from:
http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=3438
So the dip***t that told the girls to get out of there before the cops got there was preventing the discovery of these two worthless individuals, therefor committing a crime himself. I would hope that MD has the same kind of law and that this punk will be prosecuted.
It is illegal to assist a fugitive in any way. Accessory to Crime, CRS 18-8-105 Colorado Law states: "A person is an accessory to a crime if, with intent to hinder, delay or PREVENT the discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of another for the commission of a crime, he renders assistance to such person." This crime can be up to a Class 4 FELONY, punishable by up to 8 years in prison and/or a fine up to $500,000.00!
Taken from:
http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=3438
So the dip***t that told the girls to get out of there before the cops got there was preventing the discovery of these two worthless individuals, therefor committing a crime himself. I would hope that MD has the same kind of law and that this punk will be prosecuted.
Gives the opportunity to discuss what levels of force may have been appropriate and the legal implications thereof.Wildalaska said:So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound
WhiskeyTango
New member
Well actually Alaska, most of us were discussing whether or not it would have been appropriate to produce a gun in defense of the victim, and whether state laws would have allowed it, or the use of deadly force. The chest pounding going on is in fact answering the original question of what rights a bystander has if they decided to intervene, and what we would have done had we been there.
Don't underestimate women. . .
Laptop messed up last post.
While yesterday, had I watched the scene unfold, I firmly believed I would have just walked in swinging, If I watched it unfold tomorrow, I hope I will think just a little bit more. I doubt these women are strangers to the full strength blow from a larger man, and the one woman probably outweighed me. During my unarmed combat classes it quickly became apparent that 2 vs 1 was a major gamble. Even with it was a man vs women or a very large individual vs smaller ones. Fighting two people at the same time takes a very high level of skill. I have personally found the only way I have been able to come out of this situation on top is by completely incapacitating the weaker of the two opponents as fast as I can (usually if it took me longer than 20 seconds, I was going to lose) so that I can turn my attention and whats left of my strength to the stronger one.
If they decide to fight instead of run when first faced with the prospect of fighting a man, you may be trouble. Women are generally weaker than men, and a full strength blow might not turn your head too much. But this is still a street fight, and a lethal one at this point. That means there is a high probability that when faced with an opponent that has an extreme physical advantage, the women will do things such as scratch (face, eyes, ears - very, very painful) aim attacks at the genital area (your achilles heel), and probably the worst - bite. Even a smaller woman is going to have enough jaw strength to take a large chunk out of you. The killer about this is that a bite can easily transfer things like HIV/AIDS and other STDS (which these women undoubtedly had).
Initially, I think a knock or two to the head would be sufficient, if it did not end there, I believe an armed response would be appropriate. I can not see a scenario where they would continue to kick the girl in the head when they became aware there was a gun pointed at them, but if they did I feel I would be justified in using lethal force. A punch when standing up is one thing, a kick to the head when on the ground is a different arena.
If all I had was a knife (which I often do, due to the fact that my job does not allow for concealed carry), there would be more than fair warning, then lethal force would be applied with a different platform.
Laptop messed up last post.
While yesterday, had I watched the scene unfold, I firmly believed I would have just walked in swinging, If I watched it unfold tomorrow, I hope I will think just a little bit more. I doubt these women are strangers to the full strength blow from a larger man, and the one woman probably outweighed me. During my unarmed combat classes it quickly became apparent that 2 vs 1 was a major gamble. Even with it was a man vs women or a very large individual vs smaller ones. Fighting two people at the same time takes a very high level of skill. I have personally found the only way I have been able to come out of this situation on top is by completely incapacitating the weaker of the two opponents as fast as I can (usually if it took me longer than 20 seconds, I was going to lose) so that I can turn my attention and whats left of my strength to the stronger one.
If they decide to fight instead of run when first faced with the prospect of fighting a man, you may be trouble. Women are generally weaker than men, and a full strength blow might not turn your head too much. But this is still a street fight, and a lethal one at this point. That means there is a high probability that when faced with an opponent that has an extreme physical advantage, the women will do things such as scratch (face, eyes, ears - very, very painful) aim attacks at the genital area (your achilles heel), and probably the worst - bite. Even a smaller woman is going to have enough jaw strength to take a large chunk out of you. The killer about this is that a bite can easily transfer things like HIV/AIDS and other STDS (which these women undoubtedly had).
Initially, I think a knock or two to the head would be sufficient, if it did not end there, I believe an armed response would be appropriate. I can not see a scenario where they would continue to kick the girl in the head when they became aware there was a gun pointed at them, but if they did I feel I would be justified in using lethal force. A punch when standing up is one thing, a kick to the head when on the ground is a different arena.
If all I had was a knife (which I often do, due to the fact that my job does not allow for concealed carry), there would be more than fair warning, then lethal force would be applied with a different platform.
FireForged
New member
As soon as you step in to help it becomes your job, a citizens arrest is 100% legal, and I for one would not be able to sleep knowing I let these two go, possibly never to be caught and charged. Letting them go would just teach them that this kind of animal behavior is ok, and that they got away with it once, they could do it again. I wear a 550 paracord bracelet everywhere I go, this would have been the perfect use for it, knocking these to out cold and tying their hands behind their backs until law enforcement arrived.
Please quote the statutory language of any State that requires or in some way states that its "your job" as a citizen to restrain/detain a offender.
I realize that many States (like mine) allow for a citizen arrest. I have no issue with that at all. I am just curious to see where a citizen would be required to take someone into custody simply because they stepped in to stop/prevent a crime.
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chadstrickland
New member
I don't know....I would have been going to jail..i don't think I would have shot them but my old spring field 1911 is heavy as heck...I think cracking both those chicks skulls and then I would have thought that camera man had a knive and cracked him to for that comment about putting this on youtube and leave before the cops come comment he made
ice monkey
New member
Wow, I was trying to find more on this story … only to find there are seemingly a lot of fights in McDonalds. I knew Chucky Cheese was the seine of a lot of mishaps, but …
I guess statistically McDonalds with all the restaurants they have, and the price point of their food, they should have more incidence of violence. I just never thought about it! Gone are the days when you give your kid $5.00 and tell them to pick-up a burger eh!
BTW, I know what I would have liked to do - But it’s hard to say what I would have done. There is just something about folk who seemingly have nothing to lose and act as such. Trash makes getting involved hard to do when you have a life. Would have to know how it all went down.
I do hope the best for the vic.
I guess statistically McDonalds with all the restaurants they have, and the price point of their food, they should have more incidence of violence. I just never thought about it! Gone are the days when you give your kid $5.00 and tell them to pick-up a burger eh!
BTW, I know what I would have liked to do - But it’s hard to say what I would have done. There is just something about folk who seemingly have nothing to lose and act as such. Trash makes getting involved hard to do when you have a life. Would have to know how it all went down.
I do hope the best for the vic.
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound
Gives the opportunity to discuss what levels of force may have been appropriate and the legal implications thereof.
Problem is, except for a few, that just isn't happening.
Given the profanity in the vid, and a few attempts at same in the thread, plus a few racial references, this is more noise than signal, and this just isn't TFL material.
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