Video, 1911 ball ammo for defensive use?

105kw said:
Federal Guard Dog, a capped hollow point with a fmj flat point.
They discontinued it, probably due to low sales.
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Guard Dog was not popular.

It was flat nosed and a light 165 grain bullet designed for indoor use so it wouldn't penetrate far through walls.

Flat nose would mean more jams than round nose and the penetration in ballistic gel was only about 9 inches.

It really didn't solve the problems that I was talking about.

I'd like to see somebody put out a 230 grain FMJ round nose at about 850 FPS that could expand a little better.

Maybe not like an HP would, but fairly close.

I'd alternate it with regular hardball in magazines and be ready for anything.

:)
 
I would think the sharp edges from the petals on an expanded HP would do measurably more tissue damage than a flattened FMJ.
If your particular gun feeds HP bullets reliably then I see no reason to use FMJ for self defense.
 
Double Naught Spy; ( You would think we would all be using Minié balls as during the Civil war since a person shot with one during the Civil War had about a 1/3 chance of dying. Today, the chance is less than 1:10. So why aren't we still using Minié balls? Because it isn't that the bullets were that amazing. It was the lack of medical care.) <<< don't forget, the mini-ball was generally either 69 or 70 caliber, that alone says a lot.
yes better medical would have saved many, but the kill rate might have still been higher than 1:10 simply because of the size of wound chanel. just a thought.

and while the mini-ball is antiquated, it is still lethal. we can have the opinion that we are wiser smarter better than any generation before us. but that opinion may also prove our downfall.
 
If your particular gun feeds HP bullets reliably then I see no reason to use FMJ for self defense.
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IF your gun runs JHP then there's no reason to use hardball for personal defense. (unless you live in a place where the law prohibits it)

Some guns feed everything (or nearly so) some won't.

The Colt Govt model I inherited from my Dad feeds JHPs, SWCs and ball. Yes, the gun was tuned, about 60 years ago!!

My Browning BDA .45 eats everything, too and handles loads just a bit too warm for the Colt, as well.
 
2. 45 auto ball ammo worked well in WW2.
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Compared to everything else, yes. My dad carried ball ammo in a 1911 in WWII. I got to shoot that 1911 a few times as a kid.

One thing that we may be overlooking. My dad was 5'9" and probably 145 lbs when I remember him. When he was 17-18-19-20 when he was in the service (I saw some pics), he probably weighed 125-130 (like I did when I was 17-18-19). I think that was a lot closer to the norm during WWII.

These days the "average" person weighs a fair bit more than that.
How does an FMJ fare against a 135-lb individual vs a 235-lb individual, shot placement being equal?

P.S.: JHPs for my 1911s. They also chamber and fire my 200gr SWC target handloads reliably.
 
Shadow9mm said:
In a 1911, in 45 auto, is ball ammo a bad choice for self defense?


What do you think, is all the hate for ball ammo, in this specific case, justified?
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No and No.
They are both effective, one just penetrates farther the other is designed not to. That is the only difference in terminal performance. Select the one for your needs; urban, country, home, cost etc.

Video of internal damage of FMJ on a simulated "meat target" is impressive.
https://youtu.be/iBkjdutVmFA?si=RvGFPu_nfpreyhyj&t=1023
 
How does an FMJ fare against a 135-lb individual vs a 235-lb individual, shot placement being equal?
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In 1910, the average American was smaller than they are today, JM Browning offered the Army a .45 round with a 200gr truncated cone bullet doing approx 900fps.

The army didn't want that, they asked for, and got a semi auto round that essentially duplicated the .45 Govt (Schoefield) round, a 230gr slug doing approx 850fps. (+/-)

The stated reason they wanted that, was the proven track record of the load, it would reliably put down a horse (and was milder recoiling than full .45 Colt).

So, that what Browning made for them. IF it will reliably put down a horse, it will handle a "plus size" human with no trouble (with proper shot placement, of course)
 
Koda94 said:
They are both effective, one just penetrates farther the other is designed not to. That is the only difference in terminal performance. Select the one for your needs; urban, country, home, cost etc.

Video of internal damage of FMJ on a simulated "meat target" is impressive.
https://youtu.be/iBkjdutVmFA?si=RvGFPu_nfpreyhyj&t=1023
Click to expand...
Let's not overstate the performance of the .45 hardball on that particular meat target.

This was a heavier than usual meat target designed to simulate a big bear--thus beef ribs were used instead of the usual pork ribs.

Beef=maybe a 500 to 800+ pound creature.

Pork=maybe 300 to 400+.

Also used two watermelons instead of one ........... AND the .45 hardball did little damage to the FIRST watermelon--that is significant when we compare this to a HUMAN target.

Paul Harrell concluded that that WAS good performance........for use on a BEAR (where a lot of penetration is a virtue).

If we carefully ponder those results we can figure out that, on a 200 pound human..........

Maybe the hardball would be too HARD and fail to do the required (first watermelon) damage while punching through and sailing off to expend its energy God knows where.
 
44 AMP said:
In 1910, the average American was smaller than they are today, JM Browning offered the Army a .45 round with a 200gr truncated cone bullet doing approx 900fps.

The army didn't want that, they asked for, and got a semi auto round that essentially duplicated the .45 Govt (Schoefield) round, a 230gr slug doing approx 850fps. (+/-)

The stated reason they wanted that, was the proven track record of the load, it would reliably put down a horse (and was milder recoiling than full .45 Colt).

So, that what Browning made for them. IF it will reliably put down a horse, it will handle a "plus size" human with no trouble (with proper shot placement, of course)
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Whoa........hold your horses, boys.

Careful....... let's remember that when you "put down" a horse you shoot it in the head.

Let's stay apples to apples.

Did the army really say that about the .45 ACP?

Or is that just one of those Internet war stories?
 
The Verminator said:
Let's not overstate the performance of the .45 hardball on that particular meat target.

This was a heavier than usual meat target designed to simulate a big bear--thus beef ribs were used instead of the usual pork ribs.

Beef=maybe a 500 to 800+ pound creature.

Pork=maybe 300 to 400+.

Also used two watermelons instead of one ........... AND the .45 hardball did little damage to the FIRST watermelon--that is significant when we compare this to a HUMAN target.

Paul Harrell concluded that that WAS good performance........for use on a BEAR (where a lot of penetration is a virtue).

If we carefully ponder those results we can figure out that, on a 200 pound human..........

Maybe the hardball would be too HARD and fail to do the required (first watermelon) damage while punching through and sailing off to expend its energy God knows where.
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Yes, thats why I stated it depends on ones needs. It also depends on the bad guy, which nobody has any control over, a hollowpoint on a huge guy with a leather coat might not be the best. Theres no way to control how many shots one will need, and plenty of youtube evidence of that in any caliber using hollowpoints.

In an urban, city environment a hollowpoint is ideal to help prevent pass thrus and thats really the only reason why its more popular but then that popularity over the years blinds people from the effectiveness of plain ol fmj.
One of the things about the 45acp is how versatile it is as a caliber. If I was poor and could only afford one pistol a 45 with cheap plain affordable fmj is still a valid contender. Yes, One does need to be aware of pass thru is all.
 
Prevent “pass thrus”?
About 30% of the shots fired by police connect with the target.
“Pass Thrus” would appear to be much less of an issue, real world.
 
“Pass Thrus” would appear to be much less of an issue, real world.
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Pass through meaning complete penetration, an entry and an exit wound, right?

For some people this is "overpentration" but to me it is adequate penetration.

On the other hand, I'm just a single, private citizen, and one that lives in a rural area, so people on all six sides of me at across the street distance, or less is not a concern.

AND, I'm not a police agency where there might be several or more than several police shooting a year. Urban and especially metro areas with people everywhere, and lots of rounds being fired means a much, much higher possibility of "overpenetration" putting innocent people at risk. And, that not counting the fact that, by the numbers, most of the shots police fire, miss entirely.

SO, as a dept, I'd want to keep those numbers as low as possible, and would require ammo less likely to completely penetrate a person.

Down side is, there is no way possible (yet, and may never be) any way to make ammo that will reliably penetrate enough in all the myriad of real world situations that won't on occasion go all the way through and keep going.
 
Shadow9mm said:
This video is of a Sheriffs Deputy making a traffic stop. During the traffic stop the officer temporarily takes a couple weapons from the driver. One of those is a 1911 loaded with ball ammo. The comments are going hard on how disappointed the officer seemed when he saw the ball ammo, and how the ball ammo was a bad choice.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9QfPazB0xTU

In a 1911, in 45 auto, is ball ammo a bad choice for self defense?

1. The 1911 is not knows for feeding HP well, or at all in some cases.
2. 45 auto ball ammo worked well in WW2.
3. Even with hollow point ammo you can miss, or have over penetration and or failures to expand. Meaning regardless of ammo type you must follow the firearms safety rule of knowing tour target and what's beyond it.

What do you think, is all the hate for ball ammo, in this specific case, justified?
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The video is a fake, obviously. Hopefully you can see that.
 
The Verminator said:
That's why I added the plus.

I was going for more of a median since some are smaller when sold.

Yes, I'm an old farm boy.
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Ya think?

Slaughter weight for hogs and cattle are far less than those abnormal weights. I'll bet you could visit all the farms and hunt all the land and you wouldn't find 800lb hog. A 2000 bull is only around for passing on his genetics.
 
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