Video, 1911 ball ammo for defensive use?

Double Naught Spy said:
So because you have virtually no needs, ball ammo works well for you? Solid logic, hilarious, but solid.
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Kinda sorta. The reality is we each face differing needs and conditions. For example, where I currently live there were a total of 6 gun related homicides over the four year period between 2020 and 2023. In addition, as I pointed out but you excluded from your reply, I have more 45acp ball ammo than money to buy the current hollow point du jour. I'm in my 80s so even under armageddon scenarios I will likely have more ammo than I would use.

Further, I feel relatively comfortable with the reliability, usability, repeatability and accuracy of any and all of the firearms I own and carry and feel equally protected whether it is my 32 S&W Long Regulation Police or my Colt Detective Special or a 1911 5" or the S&W 59 or Sig 226 or for that matter one of my 22LR. In fact today and at least tomorrow (Wheelgun Wednesday) I will carry my S&W model 19 but with 148 gr full wadcutters.

So when I post a response to a question I can only honestly address what I find works for me. I don't say others should not prefer different selection and perhaps if I were not old and on fixed income with more disposable funds and less inventory on hand I might find the latest flying ashtray round my choice.

But I doubt it.
 
44 AMP said:
Having dug GI 230gr ball out of 80 yr old locust fence posts (VERY hard stuff) and finding the only change to the bullet was the rifling engraved into the jacket, and a very small flat spot on the tip, I'd say they are pretty hard slugs.
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One thing to remember is that there can be a lot of differences in different brands of ammo.

I think it was Paul Harrell and his "meat target" that found some expansion of (I think it was Federal) .45 ball ammo.
 
It may be hard to imagine, but bullet performance/technology has improved over the last few hundred years and probably with the most notable improvements in the last 50 years or so. For self defense work in doing tissue damage, hollowpoint ammo is a better performer overall than ball ammo.
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Better than ball (FMJ)?? I don't hear anyone saying it isn't. Absolutely HP ammo is a better performer than ball, A) when it works as intended (and they have gotten quite good at that in recent decades), and B) when, on those rare occasions, it doesn't, it's essentially the same as ball ammo.

Point here is not that there isn't better ammo than ball, or that ball is better in the target than HP, but that Ball ammo still works as well as it did when it was cutting edge technology.

You ain't gonna do 70mph on the freeway with a horse and buggy, but driven well, it will get you where you need to go.
 
In Army days, stateside was where most of 45 was shot on ranges. Never knew personally of failure of GI ball to feed. The biggest feed problems were caused by bent magazine in country only 45 firing I saw was idiots shooting into the dark at FBs. Mags are weakest link in 1911 function
I carry Ball in all mine. I don’t feel a designer bullet is needed.
 
...Ball ammo still works as well as it did when it was cutting edge technology.
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That is absolutely correct. Unfortunately that means it doesn't work so very well. That's why so much effort and money has been expended on designing expanding ammunition.

Using your other analogy, although a horse and buggy can get you from one point to another, there are significant advantages to replacing that conveyance with a modern automobile.

Just so it's clear, I'm not saying that people who carry ball ammo are doomed to failure in a self-defense shooting. If that's all you have, all you can afford, all that works in your gun, etc. then use it and don't worry about it. On the other hand, if you can use premium self-defense ammunition then it's probably worthwhile to make the upgrade.
 
230 grain Ball ammo may not be "as good" as great hollow point ammo but you can spend a lot of $$$$ on great looking hollow point 45 ammo and have it fail to expand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRGZVQTnYac

I would expect ball ammo to ricochet more in urban environments. Even 45 HST may fail to expand especially in short barreled carry guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxI2g-rZYX4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWW2Y-IZpyE

There is something to be said about carrying what you practice with and 45 HP ammo may simply not be worth the cost. How many of you practice with ammo costing more than $1 a pop?
 
There is something to be said about carrying what you practice with and 45 HP ammo may simply not be worth the cost.
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Yes, there is "something" to be said about carrying with what you practice with, usually meaning having about the same handling and about the same POI at X distance, but with that said, it is surprisingly easy to find ball ammo that mimics HP ammo well enough that the "something" is immaterial.

( In 1940, a car that could go as fast as 80 mph was considered a really fast) don't forget back in 1940 most roads were still "DIRT" and i can testify that these stiff suspension roadsters doing 80mph on a dirt road usually end up smashed against something.
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Let me help you out, George. In 1940, the pole position of the Indy 500 was 127 mph. In 2024, it was 234. This is on a paved track (asphalt started to be used in the 1930s to smooth the track), but you do bring up an interesting point in that technology does not evolve/develop in total isolation. Roads did upgrade with cars. While you have missed my point, you did make an interesting one in that people back in the day often didn't produce stuff comparable to today, because they didn't have the technology/understanding of how to do it better. They may have had the best that is offered for that time period, but that time period is now ancient history. We have better performing bullets that produce more damage.

But this notion of concomitant technology is salient. You would think we would all be using Minié balls as during the Civil war since a person shot with one during the Civil War had about a 1/3 chance of dying. Today, the chance is less than 1:10. So why aren't we still using Minié balls? Because it isn't that the bullets were that amazing. It was the lack of medical care.

Ball ammo tends to produce less overall tissue damage than hollowpoint ammo. The more tissue damage produced, the more likely the chances of getting a physiological stop.
 
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I'd offer that at normal (and) gunfight distances/center-of-mass aim points, POI/POA differences are minimal.
Real issue will be similar recoil and its control.
 
I'd offer that at normal (and) gunfight distances/center-of-mass aim points, POI/POA differences are minimal.
Real issue will be similar recoil and its control.
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Exactly correct.

It's not that hard to find a practice/training load that duplicates the recoil of a self-defense loading to minimize the training/practice costs. Then all you need to do is shoot enough of the self-defense loading to insure it's reliable in the gun, and then a magazine of it once in awhile when it's sat in the gun long enough that it needs to be rotated out.

POI/POA is a lot easier to deal with in typical semi-auto pistols because there tends to be a lot less difference in POI from one load to another than is typically seen in revolvers.

I've done a couple of tests where I shoot multiple loadings onto one target out of a semi-auto pistol using the same POA for all of them and the results are surprisingly good.
 
JohnKSa said:
It's not that hard to find a practice/training load that duplicates the recoil of a self-defense loading to minimize the training/practice costs.
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To that end, certain manufacturers even make ammunition that is designed to or very closely emulates their self defense offerings. In my experience Speer Lawman matches very similarly to Speer Gold Dot and Federal American Eagle matches very similarly to Federal HST (allowing for recoil differences if you are using the +P versions of those loads). Though I would agree that in general you don’t need to go that level to have similar performance.
 
Or if you are a handloader you can get some brands of JHP to load for function.
My old Commander has surprised me by shooting XTPs well, so i can practice with economical reloads and carry factory with the same nose.
 
Earlier I mentioned the Paul Harrell video where he got good expansion from non hollowpoint 45 ACP.

I dug around and found it and the one caveat is that he used a heavier meat target than normal (beef ribs instead of pork ribs).

Be that as it may, he did get some good expansion with cheap Winchester White Box 230 grain regular full metal jacket hardball.

In fact, it performed about as well as the hollowpoint ammo.

It was also the 230 grain velocity leader at an average 851 FPS.

It shows that, at least with the Winchester ball........it can be almost as destructive as expensive expanding ammo.

Something to ponder for those who are of the opinion that hollowpoint ammo is essential.

You may be paying too much and performance may vary among the various manufacturers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtTEEm1-1A

Note: If you want to cut to the chase--he tests the hardball at about the 20 minute mark.
 
I think I’ll continue using ball in my 45. I don’t shoot near as many bad guys as some. I hate the paper work. The boutique bullets are ok but I feel the ball is 100% reliable in any circumstance. For average humans a hard ball or two and they don’t want to play no more.
 
Be that as it may, he did get some good expansion with cheap Winchester White Box 230 grain regular full metal jacket hardball.
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Might be the lone voice in the wilderness here, but to me, 230gr FMJ that expands in "meat" is defective.
 
The ones that expanded most likely hit the beef bones.
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Most probably. But, that's not my point, and its a point that probably won't be all that popular here, today.

I don't feel that "ball" FMJ .45 bullets should expand. Ball isn't for that. That's what expanding bullets are for.

I love expanding bullets, use them for defense and hunting. I was always very fond of the Speer 200gr "flying ashtray" .45 slug. Have a small supply hoarded, for defense loads. They work in my guns. And I have some pretty hot loads for them.

Ball (230gr FMJ) is for ammo that works in everything. Its for when expansion is not needed thing, just a nice to have thing. Ball is for reliable function and penetration.

The .45acp isn't an extremely good penetrator. Fat, slow and rarely very pointed bullets aren't real good for that. Adding built in expansion to the bullet risks reducing the penetration.

There is a balance act in play, and if you can get both, by all means use them. send me some, I'll use them. But not every real world situation balances the same, and adequate or even outstanding expansion does not make up for inadequate penetration.

Placement trumps all, when penetration is adequate. If the bullet goes where it needs to go, it will work. Expanded, or not. If it doesn't get there, what else it does matters little.
 
Your point should be popular.

It is perfectly logical.

The only point I have (if it is a point) is that a .45 in full metal jacket ball will probably function more reliably than a hollowpoint in many guns.

So if we use an FMJ ball that can expand.......there could be an advantage to be gained.

So far we don't seem to have it.......because, even the Winchester White Box seemed to need those beef ribs to get good expansion.

But these results are instructive.

It poses the question whether or not a FMJ ball with expansion close to that of a hollowpoint would be a worthy offering by ammo companies.

The selling point of: "Hollowpoint expansion in a FMJ round" might get some buyers interested.
 
Federal Guard Dog, a capped hollow point with a fmj flat point.
They discontinued it, probably due to low sales.
 
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