Very Old S&W Revolver - What do I have?
- Thread starter Jkraig
- Start date
oldgunsmith
New member
It looks like what we called a S&W 5 screw (4 sideplate screws plus the one that holds the cyl. stop spring).
Mike,
About everything in your post was off base except "the" and "and". You used those words correctly but all else was wrong.
Except this bit...
That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.
We don't call 1911s "pre-Model 1911A1s" just as we don't call a Gen 1 Glock a "pre Gen 4". Same as we don't call all planes that aren't 767s "non 767s". This is because it actually makes a difference in the history of the gun and of firearms.
The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors. Some figure that all M&Ps should just be called an M&P till the model 10, or Pre model 27 or whichever designation began. (In the case of the M27 it began life as the Registered Magnum but S&W ended that practice at a certain point so there was a space of several years where the gun was produced as the ".357 Magnum" before it became the M27).
It does make a difference what things are called and it has for years in the case of lines of guns that small libraries of books have been written about.
A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.
tipoc
About everything in your post was off base except "the" and "and". You used those words correctly but all else was wrong.
Except this bit...
That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.
We don't call 1911s "pre-Model 1911A1s" just as we don't call a Gen 1 Glock a "pre Gen 4". Same as we don't call all planes that aren't 767s "non 767s". This is because it actually makes a difference in the history of the gun and of firearms.
The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors. Some figure that all M&Ps should just be called an M&P till the model 10, or Pre model 27 or whichever designation began. (In the case of the M27 it began life as the Registered Magnum but S&W ended that practice at a certain point so there was a space of several years where the gun was produced as the ".357 Magnum" before it became the M27).
It does make a difference what things are called and it has for years in the case of lines of guns that small libraries of books have been written about.
A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.
tipoc
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"We don't call 1911s "pre-Model 1911A1s" just as we don't call a Gen 1 Glock a "pre Gen 4". Same as we don't call all planes that aren't 767s "non 767s". This is because it actually makes a difference in the history of the gun and of firearms.
Wow. That's a monumental failure of an example.
1911 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.
1911A1 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.
Come on... I think you're bright enough to recognize that "pre-Model 10" is NOT an official designation from the factory or any governmental agency.
It is exactly what I said it was -- a convenient, collective way of identifying a group of guns, the exact same way that the term Victory Model is used.
Oh, by the way, Victory Model was NEVER an official S&W or Government designation, so by your apparent logic it is absolute anathma and should never, never, never ever be used, right?
"The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors... A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.
Wait, now I'm really confused... Are you saying that some collectors USE the term pre-Model 10, while others do not, and there's controversy about it? How could there be controversy about it (and why would there be controversy in the Ruger forums? Who cares what they think?) IF it wasn't used.
But I thought you've been taking the line that no one uses it. So you're saying that some DO use it?
So, Yes? No? Yes? No? No? Yes? Yes? Maybe?
Ok, time for you to face some simple facts...
1. Is Pre-Model 10 an official factory designation? No. We've established that.
2. Is pre-Model 10 used as an identifer, even by some well respected members of the S&W collecting community? Yes.
3. Given 1 combined with 2, we're left with the simple fact that no one has, or can exercise, absolute the authority to say "yes, that's right," or "No, that's wrong."
"If you, or someone else, were to argue that only the post war, short-action M&Ps made between 1946 and 1957 are pre-Model 10s, then you may have a firmer argument."
That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.
I love it when the fish gobbles down the bait...
How can it be a pre-Model 10? That was never an official factory designation, so based on your strident absolutism, that phrase is verboten and those guns made between 1946 and 1957 can only be Military and Police Hand Ejectors...
Tsk tsk tsk...
Wow. That's a monumental failure of an example.
1911 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.
1911A1 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.
Come on... I think you're bright enough to recognize that "pre-Model 10" is NOT an official designation from the factory or any governmental agency.
It is exactly what I said it was -- a convenient, collective way of identifying a group of guns, the exact same way that the term Victory Model is used.
Oh, by the way, Victory Model was NEVER an official S&W or Government designation, so by your apparent logic it is absolute anathma and should never, never, never ever be used, right?
"The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors... A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.
Wait, now I'm really confused... Are you saying that some collectors USE the term pre-Model 10, while others do not, and there's controversy about it? How could there be controversy about it (and why would there be controversy in the Ruger forums? Who cares what they think?) IF it wasn't used.
But I thought you've been taking the line that no one uses it. So you're saying that some DO use it?
So, Yes? No? Yes? No? No? Yes? Yes? Maybe?
Ok, time for you to face some simple facts...
1. Is Pre-Model 10 an official factory designation? No. We've established that.
2. Is pre-Model 10 used as an identifer, even by some well respected members of the S&W collecting community? Yes.
3. Given 1 combined with 2, we're left with the simple fact that no one has, or can exercise, absolute the authority to say "yes, that's right," or "No, that's wrong."
"If you, or someone else, were to argue that only the post war, short-action M&Ps made between 1946 and 1957 are pre-Model 10s, then you may have a firmer argument."
That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.
I love it when the fish gobbles down the bait...
How can it be a pre-Model 10? That was never an official factory designation, so based on your strident absolutism, that phrase is verboten and those guns made between 1946 and 1957 can only be Military and Police Hand Ejectors...
Tsk tsk tsk...
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Nice pre-Model 10/pre-Victory/pre-square butt/pre-five screw, Jeff. 
I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.
It seems that every time I find one I'm minutes late and someone else is buying it.
Last one was a fairly pristine 6" in .38 Long Colt with a high three-digit serial number for under $1k.
That one hurt.
I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.
It seems that every time I find one I'm minutes late and someone else is buying it.
Last one was a fairly pristine 6" in .38 Long Colt with a high three-digit serial number for under $1k.
That one hurt.
Mike,
Quit crying! Pick up a copy of Supica and Nahas "Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" (the third edition is handy), drop by a gun show, go over to the Colt Forum or the Ruger or S&W forums and as you know collectors and gun aficionados name things and debate the variations. The nomenclature becomes accepted.
If you want to just call an old Registered Magnum from 1939 "an old gun in .357 Magnum" well your call. But if you want to know more about it, to see if the front and rear sights on your gun are factory or aftermarket and to learn the possible value of the gun then you go speak with the collectors and see their lingo and see that it has worth.
This may frustrate you all to heck, for some reason, but it's the case. Whether it's guns, small block Chevy's or Hummel figurines.
Some folks don't collect S&Ws, they just own a few old guns.
tipoc
Quit crying! Pick up a copy of Supica and Nahas "Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" (the third edition is handy), drop by a gun show, go over to the Colt Forum or the Ruger or S&W forums and as you know collectors and gun aficionados name things and debate the variations. The nomenclature becomes accepted.
If you want to just call an old Registered Magnum from 1939 "an old gun in .357 Magnum" well your call. But if you want to know more about it, to see if the front and rear sights on your gun are factory or aftermarket and to learn the possible value of the gun then you go speak with the collectors and see their lingo and see that it has worth.
This may frustrate you all to heck, for some reason, but it's the case. Whether it's guns, small block Chevy's or Hummel figurines.
Some folks don't collect S&Ws, they just own a few old guns.
tipoc
Mike Irwin
Staff
Actually, I think I'll just catch up with Rick and Jim at the next gunshow and have them autograph my latest copy. It's time Rick and I have another good long talk because I need his help in tracking down a few things.
Frustrated? Crying? Try laughing my ass off at people who try to make arbitary determinations of precise, perfect nomenclature on based on what they think they know and what they think others should do.
I'm not the once screaming NO! NO! NO! at the top of my lungs every time someone has the temerity to utter those dread forbidden words "Pre Model 10!"
It's almost as amusing as the people who go into apoplectic fits when someone sticks Long in between .45 and Colt.
Unlike the screechers, I know EXACTLY what someone is talking about when they say pre-Model 10, post Registered Magnum, or Victory Model, NONE of which was ever an official nomenclature, but all three of which serve a very useful purpose.
Oh well.
Frustrated? Crying? Try laughing my ass off at people who try to make arbitary determinations of precise, perfect nomenclature on based on what they think they know and what they think others should do.
I'm not the once screaming NO! NO! NO! at the top of my lungs every time someone has the temerity to utter those dread forbidden words "Pre Model 10!"
It's almost as amusing as the people who go into apoplectic fits when someone sticks Long in between .45 and Colt.
Unlike the screechers, I know EXACTLY what someone is talking about when they say pre-Model 10, post Registered Magnum, or Victory Model, NONE of which was ever an official nomenclature, but all three of which serve a very useful purpose.
Oh well.
Mike Irwin:
Thanks Mike. Mine has a couple issues ,as I'm sure you've noticed. But all the parts have the correct serial numbers - to include the grips. Mecahnically it's in good shape and the finish isn't bad considering it's 111 years old.
I picked it up for $375.00 at a local pawn shop of all places. Originally it was priced at $500.00, but it had sat in their display case for several months and they wanted to move it out the door. The manager came down to $450 initially and when I hesitated dropped to $375.00 and I was sold.
I believed (and still do) that I wasn't going to do much better than that. Even with the original end cap on the ejector rod missing. Like you I collect S&W revolvers and I've been wanted an 1899 in my collection for awhile. I'm not a rich man so I take my little finds where and when I can. If there are a few (minor) issues I figure I can live with them.
Thanks Mike. Mine has a couple issues ,as I'm sure you've noticed. But all the parts have the correct serial numbers - to include the grips. Mecahnically it's in good shape and the finish isn't bad considering it's 111 years old.
I picked it up for $375.00 at a local pawn shop of all places. Originally it was priced at $500.00, but it had sat in their display case for several months and they wanted to move it out the door. The manager came down to $450 initially and when I hesitated dropped to $375.00 and I was sold.
I believed (and still do) that I wasn't going to do much better than that. Even with the original end cap on the ejector rod missing. Like you I collect S&W revolvers and I've been wanted an 1899 in my collection for awhile. I'm not a rich man so I take my little finds where and when I can. If there are a few (minor) issues I figure I can live with them.
royal barnes
New member
"When someone sticks Long between .45 and Colt"!!! Uh Oh, you've done it now!!
Jim Watson
New member
Never heard of a "post Registered Magnum."
I HAVE read collectors to refer to an "Unregistered Magnum" which has the specific meaning of a .357 Magnum made before WW II after sales got so good they could not keep up with stamping the extra number and issuing the certificate. It does not refer to any post-war revolver.
There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred.
I HAVE read collectors to refer to an "Unregistered Magnum" which has the specific meaning of a .357 Magnum made before WW II after sales got so good they could not keep up with stamping the extra number and issuing the certificate. It does not refer to any post-war revolver.
There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred.
Mike Irwin
Staff
post Registered Magnum = Unregistered Magnum.
"There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred."
That is true. S&W had to shut down production of the Magnums and most of the other revolvers in thier line to concentrate on fulfilling their initial commitment to the British (wow, would those have been pre-Model 10 pre-Victory models?) in compensation for the Light Rifle fiasco.
"There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred."
That is true. S&W had to shut down production of the Magnums and most of the other revolvers in thier line to concentrate on fulfilling their initial commitment to the British (wow, would those have been pre-Model 10 pre-Victory models?) in compensation for the Light Rifle fiasco.
Mike you actually are miffed about this stuff. Someone must have ticked you off over to the S&W forum. You still crying.
Or maybe you're irritated that sometimes people get their facts wrong when they think they are right. Folks make mistakes. Oh Well.
By the way, the fellas whose work you have such obvious disdain for, list and describe on pages 132-135 of the third edition of "The Standard Catalog": "The Registered magnum", "Pre-War .357 Magnum Non-Registered", the ".357 Magnum Transitional Postwar", and the ".357 Magnum Model of 1950 (Pre-Model 27)" all the early non numbered variations of the early N frame .357s. Four different designations before we get to the M27. They discuss in detail the differences in the guns and nomenclature. They only refer to one as a "Pre Model 27". True the factory did not call the guns that, but the collectors do.
As you are likely aware the "Victory" model M&Ps were so named because of the "V" serial number placed in the prefix by S&W indicating a desire for victory over the Axis. Again the "Standard Catalog" takes up pages 142 and 43 with a description of them.
It's tough when you move into a new neighborhood and all the streets are named after trees but you really want them to be named after Presidents so you holler and hoot. It's rough when no-body listens. I feel for ya.
But Roy Jinks, and Neal and Nahas and many others worked on these things for some time. When you next see them, as you say you will, complain to them about it.
tipoc
Or maybe you're irritated that sometimes people get their facts wrong when they think they are right. Folks make mistakes. Oh Well.
By the way, the fellas whose work you have such obvious disdain for, list and describe on pages 132-135 of the third edition of "The Standard Catalog": "The Registered magnum", "Pre-War .357 Magnum Non-Registered", the ".357 Magnum Transitional Postwar", and the ".357 Magnum Model of 1950 (Pre-Model 27)" all the early non numbered variations of the early N frame .357s. Four different designations before we get to the M27. They discuss in detail the differences in the guns and nomenclature. They only refer to one as a "Pre Model 27". True the factory did not call the guns that, but the collectors do.
As you are likely aware the "Victory" model M&Ps were so named because of the "V" serial number placed in the prefix by S&W indicating a desire for victory over the Axis. Again the "Standard Catalog" takes up pages 142 and 43 with a description of them.
It's tough when you move into a new neighborhood and all the streets are named after trees but you really want them to be named after Presidents so you holler and hoot. It's rough when no-body listens. I feel for ya.
But Roy Jinks, and Neal and Nahas and many others worked on these things for some time. When you next see them, as you say you will, complain to them about it.
tipoc
Mike Irwin
Staff
Pathetic that some can read the words, but can't understand the critical differences between official factory nomenclature and terms that arose out of the collector and user communities, and which were never adopted by, or used, by Smith & Wesson.
Not surprising, but still pathetic.
Not surprising, but still pathetic.
Winchester_73
New member
Well the Smithsonian has attempted to buy my S&W collection at least 5x, so I'm going to weigh in on this thread.
Not really early when you think about it. The 1905 4th change started with SN 241704. Early to me, would be 245XXX or before, not 565XXX!
Maybe so, but recognize the real reason the OPs gun has hard rubber is beccause the gun is a round butt. For square butt guns, IE since the 1905 model arrived, all square butt guns got wood, and round butt guns, with the exception of the 1899 military, got rubber. I have not seen many pre war round butt M&Ps with wood grips. I assume, as you said, rubber was discontinued for round butt guns at some point, but I have no idea when it was. In my collection, I have a 563XXX 4in round butt pre war M&P.
I don't like the pre 10 designation BUT, I also don't bother to debate it, usually. Some people do extend the "pre XX" designation to mean pre war guns as well, which makes things more confusing for everyone. However, there is the "When in Rome..." thing, which applies. If I tell them i like S&Ws, I won't say I like 1905 X change guns, but rather "5 screw guns" or maybe even, dare I say, pre model 10s, because they will most likely know what I mean. As a collector, I'm not going to educate "professional" sellers and get an eye from the guy behind the counter, when he sees I'm half his age. Unfortunately, age does not equal knowledge, but few people realize that.
If I'm talking to a S&W collector, and I say I have something, I call it a 1905 X change, or a post war M&P, model 10-1, etc. The factory did call them M&Ps before they were the model 10, so to have a name alternate to "M&P" isn't necessary. Same is true for other models. When you call it a 1905 4th change, S&W collectors know what gun, features, and era. If you call it "pre 10" I will wonder if its actually an 1899!
Someday I hope to get a S&W pre-revolver pistol aka a volcanic pistol. Btw, is your spell check defective? See if its still under warranty.
Well I tell ya what, if I don't know the guy, I will use pre 10, or whatever lingo to make sure he understands. I do try and of course use the correct lingo, but when you don't have time to explain to them, and they don't care to know or perhaps don't believe you because they know Uncle Billy knew his guns, then to me, it is a pre 10, even if its a 1899 lol! If I sell a gun online, I fill the title with every possible logical name for the gun. I also search for guns that are list improperly for these reasons. Sometimes you have to go with what is commonly spoken unless you have a TON of free time on your hands with a lot of patience. I know I don't. If you want to learn what I have, learn they way I did. I don't give free education as much as I did.
That's definitely impossible. If you mean to say if someone says it a pre model 10, you know its K frame and 38 special, that's one thing, BUT you have no idea which variation, and there are many. Pre 10 is a very broad umbrella. Some people will occasionally call a M&P target a pre 10 with target sights or something. You can't assume what a pre model 10 is when it can cover 58 years or so of manufacturing, with tons of variations. "Post registered magnum" could be a non-registered, post war transitional, or a 357 model of 1950 5 screw, or even a 4 screw model of 1950. Victory model would probably cover pre victory guns (they resemble victories, but lack V prefix), they could be 38 special or 38 S&W, etc. Once again, you can't assume that guy looks at the model differences the way you yourself do.
I think tipoc has made good points, but many many people look at this basically the way Mike does, and some others would say even Mike is too specific. As a collector, like tipoc, I won't call a model 1902 a pre model 10, and I probably wouldn't call a 1954 M&P a pre 10 either. However, since so many people do, you have to also, IMO speak that "dialect" of the S&W language to make for easier communication.
I too want an 1899. Sorry to hear about the one you missed. Maybe I will find you a 1899 but that will be a harder task than a model 12. Maybe I will find one in the TFL classifieds before you do
22 S&W revolvers? I think I was born with that many.
Not really early when you think about it. The 1905 4th change started with SN 241704. Early to me, would be 245XXX or before, not 565XXX!
Maybe so, but recognize the real reason the OPs gun has hard rubber is beccause the gun is a round butt. For square butt guns, IE since the 1905 model arrived, all square butt guns got wood, and round butt guns, with the exception of the 1899 military, got rubber. I have not seen many pre war round butt M&Ps with wood grips. I assume, as you said, rubber was discontinued for round butt guns at some point, but I have no idea when it was. In my collection, I have a 563XXX 4in round butt pre war M&P.
I don't like the pre 10 designation BUT, I also don't bother to debate it, usually. Some people do extend the "pre XX" designation to mean pre war guns as well, which makes things more confusing for everyone. However, there is the "When in Rome..." thing, which applies. If I tell them i like S&Ws, I won't say I like 1905 X change guns, but rather "5 screw guns" or maybe even, dare I say, pre model 10s, because they will most likely know what I mean. As a collector, I'm not going to educate "professional" sellers and get an eye from the guy behind the counter, when he sees I'm half his age. Unfortunately, age does not equal knowledge, but few people realize that.
If I'm talking to a S&W collector, and I say I have something, I call it a 1905 X change, or a post war M&P, model 10-1, etc. The factory did call them M&Ps before they were the model 10, so to have a name alternate to "M&P" isn't necessary. Same is true for other models. When you call it a 1905 4th change, S&W collectors know what gun, features, and era. If you call it "pre 10" I will wonder if its actually an 1899!
Someday I hope to get a S&W pre-revolver pistol aka a volcanic pistol. Btw, is your spell check defective? See if its still under warranty.
Well I tell ya what, if I don't know the guy, I will use pre 10, or whatever lingo to make sure he understands. I do try and of course use the correct lingo, but when you don't have time to explain to them, and they don't care to know or perhaps don't believe you because they know Uncle Billy knew his guns
, then to me, it is a pre 10, even if its a 1899 lol! If I sell a gun online, I fill the title with every possible logical name for the gun. I also search for guns that are list improperly for these reasons. Sometimes you have to go with what is commonly spoken unless you have a TON of free time on your hands with a lot of patience. I know I don't. If you want to learn what I have, learn they way I did. I don't give free education as much as I did. That's definitely impossible. If you mean to say if someone says it a pre model 10, you know its K frame and 38 special, that's one thing, BUT you have no idea which variation, and there are many. Pre 10 is a very broad umbrella. Some people will occasionally call a M&P target a pre 10 with target sights or something. You can't assume what a pre model 10 is when it can cover 58 years or so of manufacturing, with tons of variations. "Post registered magnum" could be a non-registered, post war transitional, or a 357 model of 1950 5 screw, or even a 4 screw model of 1950. Victory model would probably cover pre victory guns (they resemble victories, but lack V prefix), they could be 38 special or 38 S&W, etc. Once again, you can't assume that guy looks at the model differences the way you yourself do.
I think tipoc has made good points, but many many people look at this basically the way Mike does, and some others would say even Mike is too specific. As a collector, like tipoc, I won't call a model 1902 a pre model 10, and I probably wouldn't call a 1954 M&P a pre 10 either. However, since so many people do, you have to also, IMO speak that "dialect" of the S&W language to make for easier communication.
I too want an 1899. Sorry to hear about the one you missed. Maybe I will find you a 1899 but that will be a harder task than a model 12. Maybe I will find one in the TFL classifieds before you do
22 S&W revolvers? I think I was born with that many.
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Rainbow Demon
New member
Nice .38 Hand Ejector. Identical to my .32 "I Frame" (not an official designation) except for scale.
If I could afford it I'd like to have one Hand Ejector of each frame size, with an unaltered .455 British contract version being on the wish list.
The side sprung hammer block can be disabled by hardened fouling and grime, or rust. It can also lose spring tension, or very rarely be found broken.
Warping of the side plate from ham handed removal can also result in binding of the hammer block.
First thing I did with my Hand Ejector was to detail strip and clean every internal part, and carefully check the function of the hammer block.
PS
"Pre-64 Model 70" is a commonly used term among collectors, so pre Model 10 M&P is fine with me, though generic and not very descriptive and it includes a number of variants.
If I could afford it I'd like to have one Hand Ejector of each frame size, with an unaltered .455 British contract version being on the wish list.
The side sprung hammer block can be disabled by hardened fouling and grime, or rust. It can also lose spring tension, or very rarely be found broken.
Warping of the side plate from ham handed removal can also result in binding of the hammer block.
First thing I did with my Hand Ejector was to detail strip and clean every internal part, and carefully check the function of the hammer block.
PS
"Pre-64 Model 70" is a commonly used term among collectors, so pre Model 10 M&P is fine with me, though generic and not very descriptive and it includes a number of variants.
Winchester_73
New member
Not the best analogy. The pre 64 model 70 refers to a model 70 with CRF, cut checkering, among other higher cost features. The S&W confusion comes with S&W renaming the guns in 1957. S&W didn't cheapen the guns very much in that era, at least in a meaningful way. Winchester simply cheapened all of their guns and discontinued many. For many people, the last Winchesters were made in 1963. With S&W, its not that way. Many people like S&Ws a lot up until 1980. Others say the last great ones were 4 screws, but the model vs pre model stuff occurred before the 4th screw was dropped. The irony in what you said is that it was the shooters and hunters who started the stuff about pre 64 Winchesters, in 1964, because they felt Winchester had sold out. If not for those Winchester owners/users, who knows if people would care so much today.