CurlyQ.Howard
New member
Check out Gunther's biography here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_Rall
USMC pacific WWII Keep their combat arms?
- Thread starter ketland
- Start date
My dad was in Germany on VE day. They had recently occupied a small German village and had rounded up all civilian weapons. They were prepared to destory them when they got the word that the war had ended. An officer gave them permission to take anything they wanted.
Dad picked out this. A brand new pre war FN produced SXS with hang tags still on it. He built a wooden box and it cost him $1.50 to mail it back home. He could have just as easily have mailed back home a Luger, M-1, 1911 or anything else he could have gotten his hands on. I'm sure many others did.
Dad picked out this. A brand new pre war FN produced SXS with hang tags still on it. He built a wooden box and it cost him $1.50 to mail it back home. He could have just as easily have mailed back home a Luger, M-1, 1911 or anything else he could have gotten his hands on. I'm sure many others did.
leadchucker
New member
Dfariswheel said:
The account from a WWII vet I used to listen to is practically identical to that. he said he had traded for a practically new 1911, and had planned to bring it back in his duffel bag, but then he was told that they would be searched when they boarded the troop ship. He got paranoid and ditched the piece a sewer. They were never searched.
Silent Bob
New member
I once spoke to a Korean War veteran (USMC) who told me he tried to bring back a Chinese burp gun and a M1911 on the troop ship back to the States. They were nearing port when they were told their bags would be checked for contraband, he got nervous, so over the side they went. He added that their bags were not checked after all.
i know for a fact that GI,s were the worst kind thiefs, a friends dad told the story of breaking down doors and taking away all they could carry,another told of stealing(liberating) a very fine double barrel with two or three barrels,shotgun-shotgun,rifle-rifle, rifle-shotgun. as he had the shotgun-shotgun, i ask what happened to the other barrel,s and he said there is no honor amoung thiefs, some SOB stold them. eastbank.
sc928porsche
New member
Dad brought home a few from the pacific. His garand (his claim) an ariska (mum intact) and a set of swords taken in battle by him. Korea turned up a carbine. He never revealed how he got them home. All of which came into my possesion after his death. The Swords were not military issue and shortly after he passed, I returned them to the Japanese consulate to be returned to the proper family by custom. Dads rifles are kept in a glass case along with his medals in my gun room. I have no reason to doubt his word.
Dad brought home a few from the pacific. His garand (his claim) an ariska (mum intact) and a set of swords taken in battle by him. Korea turned up a carbine. He never revealed how he got them home. All of which came into my possesion after his death. The Swords were not military issue and shortly after he passed, I returned them to the Japanese consulate to be returned to the proper family by custom. Dads rifles are kept in a glass case along with his medals in my gun room. I have no reason to doubt his word.
__________________
Hmm, are you sure about the sword claim? Almost all, that being 99.999% of the "Samurai" swords brought back from battle, were production blades made in factories prior to, or during the war, and would not have been signed by the maker. Heirloom quality blades did make their way back to the US in some limited quantities, however those blades were either bartered or forfeited during the postwar occupation of the japanese homeland. This is how they come attached with a family pedigree, as well as the makers mark on the tang of the blade (known as Nakago, in japanese).
Not here to disturb your fathers credibility, but the battle pick up story does not wash. The Garand and carbine story have some issues also, As I have researched this issue deeper, it turns out that the take home your rifle issue has been pretty much put to rest. If he did keep his garand, he would have had to jump some hoops to steal it. nuff said.
__________________
Hmm, are you sure about the sword claim? Almost all, that being 99.999% of the "Samurai" swords brought back from battle, were production blades made in factories prior to, or during the war, and would not have been signed by the maker. Heirloom quality blades did make their way back to the US in some limited quantities, however those blades were either bartered or forfeited during the postwar occupation of the japanese homeland. This is how they come attached with a family pedigree, as well as the makers mark on the tang of the blade (known as Nakago, in japanese).
Not here to disturb your fathers credibility, but the battle pick up story does not wash. The Garand and carbine story have some issues also, As I have researched this issue deeper, it turns out that the take home your rifle issue has been pretty much put to rest. If he did keep his garand, he would have had to jump some hoops to steal it. nuff said.
sc928porsche
New member
I have no Idea what hoops he had to jump through but he had them. Yes, the blades were signed by maker and confirmed by consulate. They were very happy to get them back. Again, I have no reason to doubt his voracity.
Last edited:
bring back service weapons
You may have already seen this. In Hartford Conn. during a police gun buy back a woman turned in a rifle that her father had brought back from WW2. It was just sitting in her closet and she wanted to get rid of it. IT was a German Sturmgewehr 44, the original "assault rifle". The two cops running the buy back realized what it was and told her that it was worth $20,000 to $25000, and that it belonged in a museum. They didn't take it from her and told her that they would talk to the ATF for her so she could give it or sell to a museum.
You may have already seen this. In Hartford Conn. during a police gun buy back a woman turned in a rifle that her father had brought back from WW2. It was just sitting in her closet and she wanted to get rid of it. IT was a German Sturmgewehr 44, the original "assault rifle". The two cops running the buy back realized what it was and told her that it was worth $20,000 to $25000, and that it belonged in a museum. They didn't take it from her and told her that they would talk to the ATF for her so she could give it or sell to a museum.
Two cops make their own decision about the legality (and value) of an StG.44 and let the owner keep it?
Perhaps the gun was NFRTR registered and legal in CT. But if not, sorry to say, the cops were guilty of dereliction of duty, big time. Sometimes it goes against the grain, but cops really don't get to decide to ignore a law violation.
Jim
Perhaps the gun was NFRTR registered and legal in CT. But if not, sorry to say, the cops were guilty of dereliction of duty, big time. Sometimes it goes against the grain, but cops really don't get to decide to ignore a law violation.
Jim
Here is the thing about Garands, and carbines. The Garand, rifle was the standard issue rifle of the US government up until the adoption of the M-14 around 1957. Private ownership of the Garand rifle simply did not exist immediately after the war, and NONE, let me repeat NONE of them were given to a returning soldier, sailor, airman, nor Marine, nor would an average person ever have thought of STEALING a USGI issue weapon as the penalty would have simply been too high. All of the Men I have spoken to on the subject agree that civillian ownership of Garand and Carbine rifles began in the early sixties, after the adoption of the M-14 as the standard battle rifle of the US government. So,for a person to say that they kept their Garand, is simply a non-starter. Nobody kept a rifle they carried in combat, anymore than any Soldier or Marine gets to keep his M-16 today. Arms and relics from the enemy are a whole other matter.
buy back
James, yeh I wondered about that myself, but the article didn't go any further. They said they didn't want to take it to the station for fear it would get melted down. They probably called the ATF,turned her in, and she's now in Folsom makin' little rocks outa big ones!
James, yeh I wondered about that myself, but the article didn't go any further. They said they didn't want to take it to the station for fear it would get melted down. They probably called the ATF,turned her in, and she's now in Folsom makin' little rocks outa big ones!
One of our oldest living Gun Club Members is a WWII combat veteran from the Pacific. He was a veteran of Okinawa and Iwo Jima. He was in the occupying force post war Nagasaki and said walking across the ground was like walking on breaking glass.
When he returned to the US in a troop ship, to San Pedro Harbor, all enlisted men were required to open their duffle bags for inspection. Those with Japanese rifles were required to get in a line and have the crest ground off, in America by Americans. He said he was told it was because of an agreement we had with the Japanese Emperor. He said there was a pile of grenades, mortars, and land mines which had been confiscated from returning GI’s!
He did not bring back any US service arms and I have no doubt those would have been taken from him.
When he returned to the US in a troop ship, to San Pedro Harbor, all enlisted men were required to open their duffle bags for inspection. Those with Japanese rifles were required to get in a line and have the crest ground off, in America by Americans. He said he was told it was because of an agreement we had with the Japanese Emperor. He said there was a pile of grenades, mortars, and land mines which had been confiscated from returning GI’s!
He did not bring back any US service arms and I have no doubt those would have been taken from him.
I have heard that story in several variations and, with due respect to our WWII vets, don't believe it, although by now the vet probably does. It was a way to explain to the family how that rifle captured in hand-to-hand combat with Hirohito got the crest ground off.
Other variants are:
- Japanese troops carried grinding wheels with them and removed the crest before a Banzai charge
- Navy men had grinding wheels ready when the soldiers/marines got back on the ships
- Officers stood on the beaches with files or wheels and removed the crests at the troops left an island
- Harry Truman kept track of every captured Japanese rifle and sent the FBI to seize them and grind off the crest before returning them
- All Japanese rifles were seized and ground in the states when the troops returned (the above version)
- Americans ground the crest because otherwise the Japanese would sue to have their property returned
I am sure there are some I have not heard or forgot. But the story is simple. The crest (mum) was ground by Japanese at depots in Japan before the rifles were turned over to the occupying forces for souvenirs or for destruction.
Jim
Other variants are:
- Japanese troops carried grinding wheels with them and removed the crest before a Banzai charge
- Navy men had grinding wheels ready when the soldiers/marines got back on the ships
- Officers stood on the beaches with files or wheels and removed the crests at the troops left an island
- Harry Truman kept track of every captured Japanese rifle and sent the FBI to seize them and grind off the crest before returning them
- All Japanese rifles were seized and ground in the states when the troops returned (the above version)
- Americans ground the crest because otherwise the Japanese would sue to have their property returned
I am sure there are some I have not heard or forgot. But the story is simple. The crest (mum) was ground by Japanese at depots in Japan before the rifles were turned over to the occupying forces for souvenirs or for destruction.
Jim
James, how dare you, "Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story".
That about sums it up for most of this stuff.
Back in the 70's, I used to frequent a little store in Santa Monica Ca. called, "Bobs Military Antiques, and war museum", which was filled to the gills with very high end military collectibles. Mostly uniforms, and medals, but also a plethora of arms, and other items. There were rows of mannequins dressed in the full and correct kit for their respective time and place, right down to the smallest detail. This of course was possible because of the huge amount of high quality bringback and souvenier material which came to the US after the war. One of the stores specialties, found behind glass cases in the back of the store in their own section, were the Japanese blades. I watched for years, as small groups of wealthy japanese businessmen would come in to purchase, and re-patriate some of those blades, the rare ones, and they would treat them with religious reverence. I also saw many german vets come in for the various reasons, and was always fascinated to speak with them, and hear about the war from their perspective. I met Medal of Honor winners, (one of whom threw himself on a Japanese grenade and survived) and saw the scars, listened to the stories, and marveled at their exploits.
As young as I was at the time, most of these guys looked pretty old to me, but today I am older than they were in the early seventies. In any case it was all fascinating. One of the things That I learned was that for every man who saw combat, in any theatre, there were a whole bunch on men behind them keeping the ball rolling, that did not, or very little. All luck of the draw.
That about sums it up for most of this stuff.
Back in the 70's, I used to frequent a little store in Santa Monica Ca. called, "Bobs Military Antiques, and war museum", which was filled to the gills with very high end military collectibles. Mostly uniforms, and medals, but also a plethora of arms, and other items. There were rows of mannequins dressed in the full and correct kit for their respective time and place, right down to the smallest detail. This of course was possible because of the huge amount of high quality bringback and souvenier material which came to the US after the war. One of the stores specialties, found behind glass cases in the back of the store in their own section, were the Japanese blades. I watched for years, as small groups of wealthy japanese businessmen would come in to purchase, and re-patriate some of those blades, the rare ones, and they would treat them with religious reverence. I also saw many german vets come in for the various reasons, and was always fascinated to speak with them, and hear about the war from their perspective. I met Medal of Honor winners, (one of whom threw himself on a Japanese grenade and survived) and saw the scars, listened to the stories, and marveled at their exploits.
As young as I was at the time, most of these guys looked pretty old to me, but today I am older than they were in the early seventies. In any case it was all fascinating. One of the things That I learned was that for every man who saw combat, in any theatre, there were a whole bunch on men behind them keeping the ball rolling, that did not, or very little. All luck of the draw.
ChasingWhitetail91
New member
I've got an old .303 British from 1942. Didn't get a story with it, but it was made in England and has several ticks etched into the barrel. I'm thinking maybe someone kept a tally or just bumped his gun around. I'll try to post some pictures.
FWIW, I go back a bit further than Ketland. I was 12 in 1945 when the troops started to come home. Some from the ETO were given 30 days leave before being sent to the Pacific; some of those still in transit or on leave when the war ended were told to just wait for orders, which usually meant discharge papers.
Most of those who had actually seen combat did not talk a lot about it, but even some of them could not help bragging to a young boy. I listened to guys who had captured Hitler (he go away), who had taken a Walther PP or P.38 "offen Goring personal", captured Italy single handed, and so on. Not to take anything away from the real heroes, but the men of the "greatest generation", believe me, were also the greatest liars.
But some would tell it like it was with captured weapons. Pistols were often taken from prisoners captured in real fighting, but long guns were almost always taken from depots and dumps where captured weapons were kept. The GI's who were rotating back and who wanted souvenirs were taken in trucks to a depot or weapons dump and told to pick out a rifle and take it with them. Many rifles were without bolts; the bolts were in another pile.
(The bolts were removed when the prisoners were first captured to that if they tried to escape they couldn't just grab a working rifle.)
In the Pacific, most of the rifle bringbacks came from depots in Japan; the "mums" were ground off by Japanese workers before the rifles were surrendered to the heathen Americans. Not in the states, not on the ships, not by Japanese troops with power grinders, not by Harry Truman. By Japanese, under an agreement to allow that small face-saving measure.
If anyone thinks about it, stories about capturing a half dozen enemy rifles and bringing them back don't make sense. No one who has ever been in the service could believe that an infantryman could carry around not only his own rifle but even one captured piece. And they were NOT allowed to mail guns home; that was prohibited, and the army post office enforced the rules.
As to those rules and laws. The main deterrent to stealing U.S. weapons (and that is what it was, no matter how many fables you hear) was that if caught the smuggler would spend a couple of years in Leavenworth. Those vets wanted OUT! Now! They had no desire to change olive green for the dyed brown of army prisoners. The desire to go home, for all but a few, far outweighed the value of any weapon they might steal.
Jim
Most of those who had actually seen combat did not talk a lot about it, but even some of them could not help bragging to a young boy. I listened to guys who had captured Hitler (he go away), who had taken a Walther PP or P.38 "offen Goring personal", captured Italy single handed, and so on. Not to take anything away from the real heroes, but the men of the "greatest generation", believe me, were also the greatest liars.
But some would tell it like it was with captured weapons. Pistols were often taken from prisoners captured in real fighting, but long guns were almost always taken from depots and dumps where captured weapons were kept. The GI's who were rotating back and who wanted souvenirs were taken in trucks to a depot or weapons dump and told to pick out a rifle and take it with them. Many rifles were without bolts; the bolts were in another pile.
(The bolts were removed when the prisoners were first captured to that if they tried to escape they couldn't just grab a working rifle.)
In the Pacific, most of the rifle bringbacks came from depots in Japan; the "mums" were ground off by Japanese workers before the rifles were surrendered to the heathen Americans. Not in the states, not on the ships, not by Japanese troops with power grinders, not by Harry Truman. By Japanese, under an agreement to allow that small face-saving measure.
If anyone thinks about it, stories about capturing a half dozen enemy rifles and bringing them back don't make sense. No one who has ever been in the service could believe that an infantryman could carry around not only his own rifle but even one captured piece. And they were NOT allowed to mail guns home; that was prohibited, and the army post office enforced the rules.
As to those rules and laws. The main deterrent to stealing U.S. weapons (and that is what it was, no matter how many fables you hear) was that if caught the smuggler would spend a couple of years in Leavenworth. Those vets wanted OUT! Now! They had no desire to change olive green for the dyed brown of army prisoners. The desire to go home, for all but a few, far outweighed the value of any weapon they might steal.
Jim
Last edited: