Using Military as civilian law enforcers?

Don't know about the choppers, but there was an unbelievable amount of shots fired at everyone else, LEO, rescue workers, Military, civies...
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Tales of snipers shooting at helicopters and rescue personnel were among many reports of violence that swirled around New Orleans in the initial days after Katrina. Accounts of murders and rapes in the Superdome and convention center have since been called into question by state and local authorities.
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Fog of disaster, Im not ready to give up my rights on hearsay. If someone says they saw it first hand, prove to me you were there. I've met too many Vietnam Seals in my lifetime to believe anyone without proof.

The military isn't trained to be a police force, so it should stick to the skills for which it is trained: surveillance, information gathering, especially logistical support. All of these activities are allowable under Posse Comitatus.

I left out it main purpose not by accident. They are not allowed under Posse Comitatus
 
molonlabe... you don't believe there were gang bangers and punks shooting all over the town? If I remember correctly, Breacher was there personally, and I know several LEO, EMS, and EP personell that were there that came back with the same horror stories, and not a bunch of BS. I've also talked to several "refugees" and heard their stories. Please tell me you don't doubt this, I understand the opinions of both sides of the Military Use issue, but let's not confuse the issue by disbelieving what happened.

The fact that there were punks shooting doesn't justify either side of the debate, it is merely part of what needs to be considered when we consider how things should be handled in the future.
 
MolonLabe, I am basing my writing on the many NOPD officers whom I rode with and worked with. Their words through my keyboard. I can understand if you can't take that as definitive, but after what I saw, I believe it.
 
BTW, for those of you in S. FLorida, Rich, Et al, God speed with the upcoming hurricane. No sarcasm intended nor implied. It looks to be an ugly storm.
 
I am not saying absolutely nothing happened. I do not think that it was of the magnitude reported in the media. I am saying that due to the lack of communications second hand reporting is suspect. Many came back with the story that helicopters were being shot at but there are no bullet holes or confirmed pilot hits in any of the Military or civilian branches. So I would think that based on these suspected reports that the Police Chief decided to confiscate all the guns from citizens. Sorry, I remain skeptical. And very wary of the government to protect me or my rights.

Also I have never seen any evidence of someone shot by these thugs, bullet holes in squad cars, shot up emergency vehicles or whatever. They may be out there on the Internet but I haven’t seen them. Reports of children being raped at the dome and piles of bodies did not pan out.
 
Molonlabe... I respect that, and it makes sense. The things and people I referred to were what they saw first hand. We all know the media shoots for ratings, so I agree it was typical of them, but there was a lot of lead flying around, right or wrong for it to be military is not my point, simply that SOMEONE needed to shoot back...lol
 
Until federalized/mobilized National Guard Soldiers are under the command of the Gov of the state. National Guard Officers have to apply for federal recognition of thier commision. They follow State and NGB Regulations.

The Army Reserve and Active Army fall under totally federal control and thier chain of command all comes under FORSCOM up to the President. We follow regulations Published by the Department of the Army.
 
Breach-
I haven't BTDT? As in, you have? Just how many times was your unit fired on in New Orleans? Take any casualties? Meet any wounded from NOPD or NatGuard? Did you get one confirmable report of a single citizen killed by these wide roaming gangs of armed thugs?

And you wish to accuse ME of exaggeration?

As to the rest of my post, the point was simply this:
Use the Army and it will fail. That done, political history demonstrates that Congress' answer will be that they need "more-o-same"; ie: one more butt-bump down that rocky hill toward totalitarianism. YMMV
Rich
 
As in, you have
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Yes
Just how many times was your unit fired on in New Orleans
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Zero
Take any casualties
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No
Meet any wounded from NOPD or NatGuard
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No
Did you get one confirmable report of a single citizen killed by these wide roaming gangs of armed thugs?
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Confirmable as in on official letterhead, no. Via officers and residents from the Calliope projects, Yes.
Use the Army and it will fail
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Actually, they have been quite successful
What is funny about all of this is that you and many others have your agendas (we all do) and when someone comes along that actually was there and can refute your theories with fact, you start jumping to all types of questions in order to try and find something that you can say " Ahha.., told you." Frankly, I don't care that you doubt me. It simply amuses me that you cannot admit that you are wrong.
Oh well, another "agree-to-disagree" thread.
 
when someone comes along that actually was there and can refute your theories with fact, you start jumping to all types of questions
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Breach-
What are you getting all personal for here? Seriously.

You've demonstrated zero with "facts". You've simply held up your badge of community service as evidence that what you heard, 3rd, 4th and 12 party, must be "fact". The service is worthy of my thanks and, as always, you have it. The hearsay....well, it's worthy of the respect we give to unreported hearsay. The "fact" is that your own "BTDT" experience refutes your very point.

Just how many people were gunned down in the Calliope Projects Massacre? Gimme a number....I'll personally research it, I promise. But, umm, expect me to also inform the inquisitive of the murder rates there on any given Friday Night. :D Turns out Calliope is a bit infamous for gang murders, absent Natural Disaster, no?
Rich
 
What the heck? Was I the only one who spent time in NO with the recovery efforts? The troops from the 82nd and Various Nat'l Guards fired when fired upon. Wouldn't you? And, who can deny that it was a time of natural disaster? Isn't that what the Nat'l Guard is primarily meant for these days? The Mayor, Governor, and FEMA made such a fiasco of things down there. For as crappy as some folks down there acted towards us- they were Americans. They were just like you an me. There were some good folks down there that deserved all the help they could get. Out of 1500 NO Police Officers- 500 of them went unaccounted for. I heard that straight from a NO PD Captain. Instead of bashing the thought of having troops walking along side LE- give Bush a hand. He had the resourses (82nd AB) available- people (read AMERICANS) needed help- he didn't set on his arse and babble like the local gov't in La. You say the troops looked like a picture out of Iraq? Nope. I was there too- 16 months. New Orleans as a Cop and Iraq as a Soldier.
 
Military as LEO = Bad Idea.

And for what? Let's put Katrina into perspective: a little more than 1,000 people were killed. The State and City should have been able to handle it with federal assistance after the fact. Had Bush claimed a State of Insurrection two days before landfall and sent the Military in, do you know what the "death toll" would have been? Probably around 980....it was one of the worst storms of the past century and scored a direct hit on the only port city below sea level.
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If they are serving in a rescue, and support capacity, I would have to believe this just wouldn't be true. Heavy equipment, manpower, medical facillities, and shelter control would have already been in place. I think the loss of life would have been almost none. However if they are fired upon while serving in this capacity then the situation changes to a defensive one, and I could see returning fire.

As for a LEO capacity, I remember the oath I took "to defend the constitution of the United States from all enemies, foriegn, and domestic." The problem is that at that time I knew very little about the constitution, and so do many combat troops. If put in charge they know 2 things, follow orders regardless of morality (we'll figure it out later), and live to fight another day.

If a soldier is put in charge of keeping law an order on a domestic front, he is most likely not going to be concerned with your constitutional rights. He is going to be concerned with containing any situation with whatever force is necessary so that "he, or she" will live to fight another day.

Just my $ 0.015 (thats all I can afford with taxes)
 
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