Using Military as civilian law enforcers?
- Thread starter BerettaCougar
- Start date
BerettaCougar
New member
Wow, Rich, I never even heard of the bonus army, probably the greatest betrayal story I ever read.
The real problem with using the military for LE is that the U.S. military-I would say here the Army, as that is the primary ground force-is spread pretty thin right now, there just aren't enough troops to go around. And people forget that while cops can prevent and investigate and apprehend, it is juries that convict and judges who sentence. I think a lot of people think that using
the military for LE will result in "quickie" trials-drumhead court martials-and a
quick trip in front of a firing squad. Nice fantasy, but this country simply doesn't work like that. Likewise martial law is sparingly used in this country because so many insurance policies stipulate that the issuer is not required to
pay for war damage.
the military for LE will result in "quickie" trials-drumhead court martials-and a
quick trip in front of a firing squad. Nice fantasy, but this country simply doesn't work like that. Likewise martial law is sparingly used in this country because so many insurance policies stipulate that the issuer is not required to
pay for war damage.
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
The Bonus Army, the things they don't teach in history class! 
Kinda puts a damper on the hero status of Patton and MacArthur, doesn't it? Of all the guys in history I would've thought had the balls to do the Right Thing, it was them. I'll never be able to watch George C. Scott playing Patton in the same light again. 
Kinda puts a damper on the hero status of Patton and MacArthur, doesn't it? Of all the guys in history I would've thought had the balls to do the Right Thing, it was them. I'll never be able to watch George C. Scott playing Patton in the same light again. "The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things."
Dingdingding! Give Mr. Dinky a seegar, the man has nailed it. Soldiers are not trained to handle people the way law enforcement officers are. They have no business being called on to do this job, the tasks they need to do are difficult and demanding enough.
One of the foundation stones of government in the United States is something called separation of powers. It is a concept intended by the founders to avoid the centralization of too much power in one place. It also serves to make sure that adequate resources are available to meet whatever needs may arise. If a portion of our Army is involved in domestic operations, for example, those soldiers are not available if needed for assignments overseas. It may be difficult to believe but we are kinda short on soldiers right now. And a lot of folks in public safety jobs are also in the reserve component of the military, and their being activated is putting a strain on some police and fire departments. And it's a good idea to make that situation worse?
Sorry, I don't think so.
lpl/nc
Dingdingding! Give Mr. Dinky a seegar, the man has nailed it. Soldiers are not trained to handle people the way law enforcement officers are. They have no business being called on to do this job, the tasks they need to do are difficult and demanding enough.
One of the foundation stones of government in the United States is something called separation of powers. It is a concept intended by the founders to avoid the centralization of too much power in one place. It also serves to make sure that adequate resources are available to meet whatever needs may arise. If a portion of our Army is involved in domestic operations, for example, those soldiers are not available if needed for assignments overseas. It may be difficult to believe but we are kinda short on soldiers right now. And a lot of folks in public safety jobs are also in the reserve component of the military, and their being activated is putting a strain on some police and fire departments. And it's a good idea to make that situation worse?
Sorry, I don't think so.
lpl/nc
BreacherUp!
New member
Rich (and others) I'm not going to get into the politics of should/not, I'm only addressing the able/not able. The military is able to perform a limited LE mission. They cannot become a police department anymore than a PD can become an infantry Bn. But the military, in a time of domestic crisis, is and should only be called upon in the most dire of situations (I believe this was) to provide security for follow-on humanitarian and NGO forces. Some of the security missions may fall into the realm of LE work, but they certainly are not setting speed traps, etc. They are trained to deal with resolving issues, as we use to regularly use the Cooper model for mindset and the force continuum for use of force (muh the same way PDs do).
PS, I also believe the military should exist to only kill people and break their toys. But as history has shown, mission creep dictates otherwise.
PS, I also believe the military should exist to only kill people and break their toys. But as history has shown, mission creep dictates otherwise.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
You mean, like, if there is a nuclear attack. I'd agree and we'll figure out the Constitutionality of it after the fact.BreacherUp said:
But to codify it as Presidential prerogative, is simply begging for American troops to be used as a Federal Police Power every time there's a train wreck.
And for what? Let's put Katrina into perspective: a little more than 1,000 people were killed. The State and City should have been able to handle it with federal assistance after the fact. Had Bush claimed a State of Insurrection two days before landfall and sent the Military in, do you know what the "death toll" would have been? Probably around 980....it was one of the worst storms of the past century and scored a direct hit on the only port city below sea level.
I'm on public record with my words and my purse as to my concern for the victims of Katrina. But the answer, when local politicians are incompetent, is NOT to replace them with potentially incompetent National Bureaucrats.
What on earth are some people thinking?
Rich
In Vietnam MPs often accomanied the Infantry to act as POW handlers.
Shooters and gun owners need to remember that while firearms skill and choice of weapons are an important part of LE, most LEOs never fire a shot in
anger. The ability to write clear and legible reports that the DA can use to build a solid case, to read people, to be observant, to know how to secure a
crime scene until the investigators and lab techs arrive, to comfort often hysterical witnesses-that is what law enforcement does.
Shooters and gun owners need to remember that while firearms skill and choice of weapons are an important part of LE, most LEOs never fire a shot in
anger. The ability to write clear and legible reports that the DA can use to build a solid case, to read people, to be observant, to know how to secure a
crime scene until the investigators and lab techs arrive, to comfort often hysterical witnesses-that is what law enforcement does.
BreacherUp!
New member
Rich, I just returned from New Orleans after two weeks. Though the death toll, is "little more than a 1000", that number doesn't do the scene justice. I also went over to Gulfport, Waveland and Biloxi. Waveland has no standing buildings, none. The only standing structure I saw was the remnants of the vault at a bank. Burglaries, small-scale looting and a few felonies were still present.
99% of the people I made contact with were very happy with our presence. All wished we had been there sooner. Most begged us not to leave. There is simply not enough local and state infrastructre to keep law and order, provide medical support, food/shelter, etc. I worked with many of the ARNG troops. Very professional, conducted themselves as expected, and integrated very well into the LE force. Many of the NG troops are cops, so this was not a problem. There were LE agencies from all over the US, and we all felt the same. No city or state could handle this on their pwn. A national level effort with a centralized command and control was required for the aftermath.
From where I stood in the muck of it all, the President was right to not only federalize the area, but to keep the resources there longer than what some wanted. It will take a long time for those cities to revitalize.
99% of the people I made contact with were very happy with our presence. All wished we had been there sooner. Most begged us not to leave. There is simply not enough local and state infrastructre to keep law and order, provide medical support, food/shelter, etc. I worked with many of the ARNG troops. Very professional, conducted themselves as expected, and integrated very well into the LE force. Many of the NG troops are cops, so this was not a problem. There were LE agencies from all over the US, and we all felt the same. No city or state could handle this on their pwn. A national level effort with a centralized command and control was required for the aftermath.
From where I stood in the muck of it all, the President was right to not only federalize the area, but to keep the resources there longer than what some wanted. It will take a long time for those cities to revitalize.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Breacher-
I'm not arguing that NatGuard should not be used in such cases. That's their mission and they do so admirably. I'm arguing that Regular Military has a different role and should be used for what they are trained to do....relief work and killing the enemy. To place them in an in-between role of Law Enforcement is folly.
Rich
I'm not arguing that NatGuard should not be used in such cases. That's their mission and they do so admirably. I'm arguing that Regular Military has a different role and should be used for what they are trained to do....relief work and killing the enemy. To place them in an in-between role of Law Enforcement is folly.
Rich
BreacherUp!
New member
In most, I agree. However, I think we would both agree that the active side has better equipment, better logistical & combat service support, and is on a shorter string in terms of being able to deploy en masse with the comand, control and communications infrastructure in a short period of time. When it comes down to it, why not use the best with the most when it really counts?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
And why, pray tell, would "combat service support" be a decision factor when you are dealing with thousands of your own citizens and hundreds of petty, property crime ciminals?
I'd think, if the issue was saving lives, the Relief Side would be far more important than the "combat service" angle. How 'bout we leave their role at that?
Rich
BreacherUp!
New member
Rich, CSS will include medical/triage, motor transportation, engineers, MPs, fuel trucks etc. They are already in commands whose sole purpose is to support whatever unit and mission assigned. As a matter of fact, they were the ones doing most of the relief ops.
I have a somewhat difficult time with the distinction between Regular Army and National Guard. Other than the Governor of the State is in the chain of command of the National Guard there are few differences. I served in the Regular Army with National Guard members right next to me. WTSHTF, they are ALL Army.
When disasters like Hurricane Katrina occur, and local authority is overwhelmed from all fronts, then it should be a natural occurance that the National Guard or Army for that matter be deployed to maintain order. There should be a protocol that keeps Law Enforcement in the hands of local authority but with augmentation of forces provided by Military. If 20 BG's are shooting at 6 LEO's, I don't think the LEO's are going to send away the assistance.
In NO, it appeared that the only units that had any type of capable transport in the area were the military (Air, Deep Water Capable Vehicles)
The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits use of Army to "Execute the Laws" (Search, Siezure, Arrest) although Congress has the power to modify. Doesn't say they can't direct traffic, assist with transport, or defend themselves if fired upon.
When disasters like Hurricane Katrina occur, and local authority is overwhelmed from all fronts, then it should be a natural occurance that the National Guard or Army for that matter be deployed to maintain order. There should be a protocol that keeps Law Enforcement in the hands of local authority but with augmentation of forces provided by Military. If 20 BG's are shooting at 6 LEO's, I don't think the LEO's are going to send away the assistance.
In NO, it appeared that the only units that had any type of capable transport in the area were the military (Air, Deep Water Capable Vehicles)
The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits use of Army to "Execute the Laws" (Search, Siezure, Arrest) although Congress has the power to modify. Doesn't say they can't direct traffic, assist with transport, or defend themselves if fired upon.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
This is crazy. The looting in the Gulf Region has been VERY weak and sporadic in comparison to REAL riots that this nation has coped with in past. If NO is the bar we need to jump to order American Military to point full auto weapons at American Citizens, then why not Toledo this past Sunday? Why not similar circumstances, like the New York Subway Scare and the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Scare.
Hell, if local forces have such a tenuous hold on civil obedience, let's get proactive and call our troops home from Europe. We can house them in major urban areas all over the country, where the can become familiar with the terrain, conduct "excersizes" to keep up their efficiency and begin to form lists of the potential "trouble makers" [like those on this Board]. If a "little" change in use of the Army on US Soil is good, a bigger change must be even better.....at least, so goes our ConcressCritters historical reasoning.
Let's not forget the wanton murders and child rapes at the Super Dome. Severed heads in the hallways. The twisted and lifeless forms of infants in the waste baskets.
How about the Youth? Once recruited voluntarily, they did one helluva job in 1930's Germany. I mean, if we can save just one WalMart, it'd all be worth it.
Rich
Hell, if local forces have such a tenuous hold on civil obedience, let's get proactive and call our troops home from Europe. We can house them in major urban areas all over the country, where the can become familiar with the terrain, conduct "excersizes" to keep up their efficiency and begin to form lists of the potential "trouble makers" [like those on this Board]. If a "little" change in use of the Army on US Soil is good, a bigger change must be even better.....at least, so goes our ConcressCritters historical reasoning.
Let's not forget the wanton murders and child rapes at the Super Dome. Severed heads in the hallways. The twisted and lifeless forms of infants in the waste baskets.
How about the Youth? Once recruited voluntarily, they did one helluva job in 1930's Germany. I mean, if we can save just one WalMart, it'd all be worth it.
Rich
BreacherUp!
New member
Gimme a break, Rich. You really sound like one of those know-it-all-but-haven't-BTDT talking heads on TV.
The looting was very real. We had to donate 5.56 and .40 ammo to the officers because they had gotten in so many gunbattles with lootters over a week period. Not shootings, gunbattles. Many only had enough ammo to fill two pistol mags. Shooting at helos and relief workers. Real. People were still coming back into the city to pick up hidden loot and weapons. The gun of choice in the Calliope and St. Thomas projects (some of the highest murder rates in the US), the AK-47 and SKS.
Simple, they were scares, no one was getting shot and killed. But, you already knew this.
"Point full automatic weapons at American Citizens" . Rich, you're beginning to sound like the antis who use inflammatory language to try and ban assault weapons. Toledo rioting where they all can go back to a livable home after a 1/2 day of mayhem, and the NO rioting where no one had a home and still had to deal with surviving are two very different universes.
I cannot believe you somehow correlate Nazi Germany with a monumental natural disaster requiring every resource possible. Whether those people are wearing Army green or hunter's orange, why does it matter. It only matters to you because it didn't happen to you. I guarantee if you had to float out of your attic that you would not slap the hand away from an outreached soldier of the 82nd AB waiting in a boat. Hypocrasy at its finest, Rich. Honestly, you're whole black-and-white argument stinks to high heaven, and is so factually erroneus that you ought to just leave it be.
Someone want to tell me why there have been no confirmed shots at rescue helos. Not one hole, nada. Thats because the reports were overblown. Read the news. And people want to unleash the Military on the american people based on this. Our founding fathers were right we have our freedom, but can we keep it?
Posted on Mon, Oct. 03, 2005
Rumors fueled Katrina tales
Helicopters may not have been shot at
BY MIRIAM HILL and NICHOLAS SPANGLER
Knight Ridder News Service
NEW ORLEANS — Among the rumors that spread as quickly as floodwaters after Hurricane Katrina, reports that gunmen were taking potshots at rescue helicopters stood out for their senselessness.
On Sept. 1, as patients sweltered in hospitals without power and thousands of people remained stranded on rooftops and in attics, crucial rescue efforts were delayed as word of such attacks spread.
But more than a month later, representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say they have yet to confirm a single incident of gunfire at helicopters.
Likewise, members of several rescue crews who were told to halt operations say there is no evidence they were under fire.
To be sure, the streets of New Orleans posed real dangers in the days after Katrina. Many rescue workers said they heard gunfire; one doctor reports that shots came close enough to Charity Hospital that he heard the bullets hit.
But so many rumors were swirling that the facts still haven't been sorted out. A picture is emerging of heroic but harried rescue workers from dozens of organizations forced to make snap decisions with only slender threads of information and no reliable communications.
The storm created so much confusion that government officials cannot even agree on whether they ever issued an order to halt flights or other rescue efforts.
Sometimes the mere rumor that they had was enough.
On the morning of Sept. 1, Mike Sonnier was directing rescue helicopters at his company, Acadian Ambulance, when one of his pilots called to say the military had suspended flights after gunfire was reported in the air near the Louisiana Superdome.
Should he continue rescuing sick evacuees, leaving his pilots and medics at risk — or suspend his company's flights?
Sonnier immediately shut down flights.
"Until I can confirm that this did happen or didn't happen, it's not a chance that I can take," he said.
Sonnier said that when he checked with the National Guard about two hours later, he was told it was OK to fly. At that point Acadian resumed operations. Even today, it's not clear whether a military order to stop flying was ever actually made.
Reports persisted throughout the day of helicopters in the cross hairs, part of the image of a city under siege that was spreading across the nation.
"Hospitals are trying to evacuate," a Coast Guard spokeswoman at the city emergency operations center told the Associated Press. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in, people are shooting at them."
But that initial report proved difficult to confirm. Two Coast Guard spokesmen who were asked in recent days about helicopter shootings said there were no incidents of any Coast Guard personnel or vehicles taking fire.
"We don't know of any shots ever fired directly at us," said Capt. Bob Mueller, commander of the Guard's New Orleans station. "But there were a number of reports of shots fired in the air. There were two occasions where all (helicopters) were directed to land. I believe those orders came from the Superdome. Our flatboats did stand down Sept. 1."
Lt. Pete Schneider, a spokesman for the National Guard, which was handling Superdome evacuations, said it was a civilian who told Guard members in the area that shots had been fired. Schneider said flights continued despite the danger.
But a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security — which oversees the Federal Emergency Management Agency — contradicted that statement, saying Superdome flights were temporarily suspended because of gunfire.
The confusion affected more than just helicopter crews. Florida Task Force 1 was using boats to reach the stranded — but not on Sept. 1.
Because of reports of gunfire, a FEMA support team ordered the Florida task force to stop work for the entire day unless law enforcement protection could be found, task force leader Dave Downey said. That help never came. Meanwhile, thousands of people were stuck in attics and on roofs of flooded houses in New Orleans.
"We had just had a very successful day before," when they rescued 400 people, said Downey, whose crew manned boats. "It definitely slowed down our rescue efforts. …
"In a rescue scenario, every hour that slips by makes the situation more complicated, and the chance for survival diminishes," he said.
Other teams also were ordered to stand down. Many suspensions were for a matter of hours, and in some cases rescue teams simply moved to areas thought to be safe and continued to work.
FEMA sent mixed messages in recent days about whether rescue efforts were placed on hold.
"If, on the ground, if they were in the middle of a search and they were being shot at, for safety reasons, they may have temporarily put that search on hold," said Deborah Wing, a FEMA spokeswoman in Washington. Later, she said by e-mail that no operations were ever suspended, despite "reports of gunfire."
Some who were in New Orleans that day described moments of real peril. Tyler Curiel, a cancer doctor at Tulane University Hospital, said a sniper shot at him and his military escorts in the street as they evacuated patients from Tulane and Charity hospitals. Curiel said the gunman was in a nearby parking deck shooting at Charity's emergency room about noon Sept. 1.
"You could hear the shots fired, you could hear the bullets hitting," he said. "I just had to duck."
And Charity Hospital executive Ed Burke said he saw a sniper fire a shot at the emergency room from a parking garage the day before.
Many other stories don't pan out. Reports that an employee of the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries was shot during a rescue mission were false, a department spokesman said. And although one man was arrested after shooting a .22-caliber rifle in the air as a helicopter flew by, it occurred several days after the major rescue operations at hospitals and the Superdome.
Tales of snipers shooting at helicopters and rescue personnel were among many reports of violence that swirled around New Orleans in the initial days after Katrina. Accounts of murders and rapes in the Superdome and convention center have since been called into question by state and local authorities.
Consider how the helicopter shooting stories morphed during one day of news coverage.
Early the morning of Sept. 1, National Public Radio reported that a Chinook helicopter was shot at. That afternoon, NPR reported that search-and-rescue teams had been shot at. By 5 p.m. on Fox, the Chinook had become a Sikorsky. That evening, Keith Olbermann, host of MSNBC's "Countdown," opened the show talking about "an unknown number of residents shooting at and threatening the very people trying to save them."
By the next night, U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-La., in an MSNBC interview with Tucker Carlson, said matter-of-factly that bus drivers and helicopters were being shot at.
Perhaps one of the best examples of the feedback loop created by rumor and amplified by the media happened at Acadian Ambulance.
On Wednesday, Aug. 31, an Acadian medic reported that he had been unable to drop supplies at a hospital in suburban Kenner because of armed crowds on the roof. But the medic had never gone to the hospital, turning back after hearing a warning over military radio.
Acadian Chief Executive Richard Zuschlag repeated the story to the media, unaware that his crew had been acting on a military radio report. Zuschlag said he learned only in the past week that his crew had not actually seen the crowds.
"There are probably half a dozen incidents like that, when you really try to get to the bottom of it," he said. "It's A talking to B talking to C talking to D. But when A talks to D, it turns out it wasn't really that way."
A spokeswoman for Kenner Regional Medical Center said Sunday that she knew of no such incident.
Acadian pilot Marc Creswell believes the sound of gunfire from thugs roaming the streets gave rise to the widespread tales of rescue workers being targeted.
"You have to understand, there's a lack of communication, the hostile nature of the crowd, the people looting, shooting at people," Creswell said. "The next person passes on and says they shot five people. …
"Before you know it, that turns into platoons of people that were shooting, and there's just no way to verify those things, and people got really scared. Was there some embellishment? Maybe so."
The debate about what actually happened isn't over. The Department of Homeland Security plans to investigate whether helicopters were targeted, as well as the extent to which rescue operations were delayed. The department hopes, according to a spokeswoman, "to achieve clarity on this issue."
One month later, Downey, of Florida Task Force 1, isn't sure the decision to halt operations was the right one.
"In hindsight, it didn't appear as though security was as big an issue. But (at the time) we were inundated with reports from back home, saying the situation was very violent. We didn't know what to believe.
"You've heard of the 'fog of war' — well, in the fog of disaster response, sometimes information is sketchy, and you have to act on the information you have available at that time."
Keep it up Rich, Someone has too.
Not Real
Posted on Mon, Oct. 03, 2005
Rumors fueled Katrina tales
Helicopters may not have been shot at
BY MIRIAM HILL and NICHOLAS SPANGLER
Knight Ridder News Service
NEW ORLEANS — Among the rumors that spread as quickly as floodwaters after Hurricane Katrina, reports that gunmen were taking potshots at rescue helicopters stood out for their senselessness.
On Sept. 1, as patients sweltered in hospitals without power and thousands of people remained stranded on rooftops and in attics, crucial rescue efforts were delayed as word of such attacks spread.
But more than a month later, representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say they have yet to confirm a single incident of gunfire at helicopters.
Likewise, members of several rescue crews who were told to halt operations say there is no evidence they were under fire.
To be sure, the streets of New Orleans posed real dangers in the days after Katrina. Many rescue workers said they heard gunfire; one doctor reports that shots came close enough to Charity Hospital that he heard the bullets hit.
But so many rumors were swirling that the facts still haven't been sorted out. A picture is emerging of heroic but harried rescue workers from dozens of organizations forced to make snap decisions with only slender threads of information and no reliable communications.
The storm created so much confusion that government officials cannot even agree on whether they ever issued an order to halt flights or other rescue efforts.
Sometimes the mere rumor that they had was enough.
On the morning of Sept. 1, Mike Sonnier was directing rescue helicopters at his company, Acadian Ambulance, when one of his pilots called to say the military had suspended flights after gunfire was reported in the air near the Louisiana Superdome.
Should he continue rescuing sick evacuees, leaving his pilots and medics at risk — or suspend his company's flights?
Sonnier immediately shut down flights.
"Until I can confirm that this did happen or didn't happen, it's not a chance that I can take," he said.
Sonnier said that when he checked with the National Guard about two hours later, he was told it was OK to fly. At that point Acadian resumed operations. Even today, it's not clear whether a military order to stop flying was ever actually made.
Reports persisted throughout the day of helicopters in the cross hairs, part of the image of a city under siege that was spreading across the nation.
"Hospitals are trying to evacuate," a Coast Guard spokeswoman at the city emergency operations center told the Associated Press. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in, people are shooting at them."
But that initial report proved difficult to confirm. Two Coast Guard spokesmen who were asked in recent days about helicopter shootings said there were no incidents of any Coast Guard personnel or vehicles taking fire.
"We don't know of any shots ever fired directly at us," said Capt. Bob Mueller, commander of the Guard's New Orleans station. "But there were a number of reports of shots fired in the air. There were two occasions where all (helicopters) were directed to land. I believe those orders came from the Superdome. Our flatboats did stand down Sept. 1."
Lt. Pete Schneider, a spokesman for the National Guard, which was handling Superdome evacuations, said it was a civilian who told Guard members in the area that shots had been fired. Schneider said flights continued despite the danger.
But a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security — which oversees the Federal Emergency Management Agency — contradicted that statement, saying Superdome flights were temporarily suspended because of gunfire.
The confusion affected more than just helicopter crews. Florida Task Force 1 was using boats to reach the stranded — but not on Sept. 1.
Because of reports of gunfire, a FEMA support team ordered the Florida task force to stop work for the entire day unless law enforcement protection could be found, task force leader Dave Downey said. That help never came. Meanwhile, thousands of people were stuck in attics and on roofs of flooded houses in New Orleans.
"We had just had a very successful day before," when they rescued 400 people, said Downey, whose crew manned boats. "It definitely slowed down our rescue efforts. …
"In a rescue scenario, every hour that slips by makes the situation more complicated, and the chance for survival diminishes," he said.
Other teams also were ordered to stand down. Many suspensions were for a matter of hours, and in some cases rescue teams simply moved to areas thought to be safe and continued to work.
FEMA sent mixed messages in recent days about whether rescue efforts were placed on hold.
"If, on the ground, if they were in the middle of a search and they were being shot at, for safety reasons, they may have temporarily put that search on hold," said Deborah Wing, a FEMA spokeswoman in Washington. Later, she said by e-mail that no operations were ever suspended, despite "reports of gunfire."
Some who were in New Orleans that day described moments of real peril. Tyler Curiel, a cancer doctor at Tulane University Hospital, said a sniper shot at him and his military escorts in the street as they evacuated patients from Tulane and Charity hospitals. Curiel said the gunman was in a nearby parking deck shooting at Charity's emergency room about noon Sept. 1.
"You could hear the shots fired, you could hear the bullets hitting," he said. "I just had to duck."
And Charity Hospital executive Ed Burke said he saw a sniper fire a shot at the emergency room from a parking garage the day before.
Many other stories don't pan out. Reports that an employee of the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries was shot during a rescue mission were false, a department spokesman said. And although one man was arrested after shooting a .22-caliber rifle in the air as a helicopter flew by, it occurred several days after the major rescue operations at hospitals and the Superdome.
Tales of snipers shooting at helicopters and rescue personnel were among many reports of violence that swirled around New Orleans in the initial days after Katrina. Accounts of murders and rapes in the Superdome and convention center have since been called into question by state and local authorities.
Consider how the helicopter shooting stories morphed during one day of news coverage.
Early the morning of Sept. 1, National Public Radio reported that a Chinook helicopter was shot at. That afternoon, NPR reported that search-and-rescue teams had been shot at. By 5 p.m. on Fox, the Chinook had become a Sikorsky. That evening, Keith Olbermann, host of MSNBC's "Countdown," opened the show talking about "an unknown number of residents shooting at and threatening the very people trying to save them."
By the next night, U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-La., in an MSNBC interview with Tucker Carlson, said matter-of-factly that bus drivers and helicopters were being shot at.
Perhaps one of the best examples of the feedback loop created by rumor and amplified by the media happened at Acadian Ambulance.
On Wednesday, Aug. 31, an Acadian medic reported that he had been unable to drop supplies at a hospital in suburban Kenner because of armed crowds on the roof. But the medic had never gone to the hospital, turning back after hearing a warning over military radio.
Acadian Chief Executive Richard Zuschlag repeated the story to the media, unaware that his crew had been acting on a military radio report. Zuschlag said he learned only in the past week that his crew had not actually seen the crowds.
"There are probably half a dozen incidents like that, when you really try to get to the bottom of it," he said. "It's A talking to B talking to C talking to D. But when A talks to D, it turns out it wasn't really that way."
A spokeswoman for Kenner Regional Medical Center said Sunday that she knew of no such incident.
Acadian pilot Marc Creswell believes the sound of gunfire from thugs roaming the streets gave rise to the widespread tales of rescue workers being targeted.
"You have to understand, there's a lack of communication, the hostile nature of the crowd, the people looting, shooting at people," Creswell said. "The next person passes on and says they shot five people. …
"Before you know it, that turns into platoons of people that were shooting, and there's just no way to verify those things, and people got really scared. Was there some embellishment? Maybe so."
The debate about what actually happened isn't over. The Department of Homeland Security plans to investigate whether helicopters were targeted, as well as the extent to which rescue operations were delayed. The department hopes, according to a spokeswoman, "to achieve clarity on this issue."
One month later, Downey, of Florida Task Force 1, isn't sure the decision to halt operations was the right one.
"In hindsight, it didn't appear as though security was as big an issue. But (at the time) we were inundated with reports from back home, saying the situation was very violent. We didn't know what to believe.
"You've heard of the 'fog of war' — well, in the fog of disaster response, sometimes information is sketchy, and you have to act on the information you have available at that time."
Keep it up Rich, Someone has too.
Don't know about the choppers, but there was an unbelievable amount of shots fired at everyone else, LEO, rescue workers, Military, civies...
Unfortunately, I think both Rich and Breacher are correct, meaning there is a VERY fine line as to whether/ when / how the military should be used domestically. Although for the most part, Rich, I agree with you, remember that there were so many shots being fired at the rescuers that all Fire and EMS workers were having to arm themselves. The situation was such that it was ncessary to call in "Shooters". The military (and many EP/ Private Security) personell were not there to enforce laws, but to simply protect people ( to discourage/return fire) and assist with rescue/relief efforts.
That said, who's ready to torch me...lol, just kidding
Unfortunately, I think both Rich and Breacher are correct, meaning there is a VERY fine line as to whether/ when / how the military should be used domestically. Although for the most part, Rich, I agree with you, remember that there were so many shots being fired at the rescuers that all Fire and EMS workers were having to arm themselves. The situation was such that it was ncessary to call in "Shooters". The military (and many EP/ Private Security) personell were not there to enforce laws, but to simply protect people ( to discourage/return fire) and assist with rescue/relief efforts.
That said, who's ready to torch me...lol, just kidding
I just like to add, those that have studied LE formally or are cops...know all about the Use of Force Continum(sp lol) With that said, what is the First thing on that list....Presence. A man standing in full combat gear, with an automatic "ugly mean" rifle...sends out one message....while Johnny Law with a handgun holstered as many peole are used to seeing, send out a totally different image.
Thus making the use of force esclated slightly, hopefully you are following me on this one lol....When using US troops in missions where LE can be used...It hurts the over all task at hand. Two different animals trained to carry out two different missions. I was upset to be honest with the lack of use of LE from surrounding areas...Hell, Us up here in VA have been attempting to lend our help and support.......only to be turned around and ignored....werid.