US lawmen outgunned in firefights along Mexican border

[STAGE 2]

If the LEO's are out gunned then its their own fault. I don't know a single LEO or military person worth their salt that simply used everything that Uncle Sam or their own department issued them. If you're going into the sandbox then you'd better bring the right toys, if not then the only person to blame is yourself.

 

[stephen426]

Why is it that so many people here cry BS and ask for evidence rather than doing research? I guess it is easier than addressing the issue at hand. Do you think that MinutemanEagle1 has something to gain from posting false information? Does he have to personally go and take pictures of the bullet holes to satisfy you? If you don't like it, just skip top the next thread. Rant off.

Now for the topic at hand... I don't doubt that our border patrol agents are under gunned against drug lords and human smugglers. Drug lords have the money and the ability to acquire some serious fire power. It makes good business sense for them to monitor and thwart those who get tin their way. The 1092 mile border between Mexico and the US is difficult to completely block and they will exploit those weaknesses. While there may be some exageration on the part of the border agents (10 minutes of sustained fire) I'm sure the time will seem much longer for anyone in their situation.

I feel one solution would be to place hardened sniper positions. Equip border patrol agents with high powered rifles (.50 BMGs come to mind) and high powered optics. These positions need to have a hard wired communication systems or high level encryption to prevent eaves dropping. I'm sure there are also agents on some drug lords or human smugglers' payrolls. They need to constantly feed false information and ferret out any moles.

New technology including motion sensors and infrared sensors are required to cover the gaps. In addition, border patrol would greatly benefit from specially tasked satellite use to identify large movements of people. If we continue to put out several teams of agents to cover miles and miles of border, drug lords and human smugglers will exploit our weakness and continue to enter our country practically unchecked.

 

[stephen426]

If the LEO's are out gunned then its their own fault. I don't know a single LEO or military person worth their salt that simply used everything that Uncle Sam or their own department issued them. If you're going into the sandbox then you'd better bring the right toys, if not then the only person to blame is yourself.

STAGE2,

Think about what you just wrote. Our border patrol agents are not dealing with a few lightly armed individuals. They are dealing with heavily armed drug dealers and smugglers. Being outgunned also deals with the support you have. Do you think you can really fend off a well equipped group of mercenaries even if you brought some heavier weapons?

Besides, when did it become an employee's obligation to buy his own equipment because the equipment he was given was insufficient? Would you spend your own money to buy guns and ammo if you didn't get reimbursed for it? When is the last time you bought a faster computer for your job with your own money. Get real.

 

[STAGE 2]

Besides, when did it become an employee's obligation to buy his own equipment because the equipment he was given was insufficient? Would you spend your own money to buy guns and ammo if you didn't get reimbursed for it? When is the last time you bought a faster computer for your job with your own money. Get real

My father was a 3rd generation LEO and a federal agent. He patrolled many of the same borders in that article. His 30+ year career was as "real" as it gets. I'll side with the example that he and his coworkers set as opposed to some snippet on the internet.

As for purchasing my own ammo and firearms, what I said stands. Most agencies today give you a choice of a single model of firearm. I guarantee a glock doesn't fit everybody. Most all of my friends that work in law enforcement have purchased their own firearms with their own money without any reimbursement. Why? Because when they get shot at or need to use a gun they are gonna want every edge they can get and that means using the gun they are best with. My life is worth far more than 700 bucks.

I don't work on or near the border. I have no firsthand knowledge of what goes down there. However by just reading the news, much less getting reports from other agencies that are down there only a fool would go on a patrol without some means to make a proper defense.

If they are underarmed it is their own fault.


Post Script: The laptop I use at work in conjunction with the desktop provided me was purchased with my own funds. Thanks for playing.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I think the border patrol needs some AR-15's, that might level the playing field a little bit, and throw in some .308 sniper rifles.

 

[Destructo6]

As for purchasing my own ammo and firearms, what I said stands. Most agencies today give you a choice of a single model of firearm. I guarantee a glock doesn't fit everybody. Most all of my friends that work in law enforcement have purchased their own firearms with their own money without any reimbursement.

That doesn't stand up to much scrutiny, however. Agents are prohibited to carry any weapon, ammo, or magazines that was not issued. So, that limits one to a .40 Beretta or HK pistol and a shotgun or a M4.

To carry something else, not issued, will cost you your job, shootout or not.

 

[STAGE 2]

Not so. The FBI for example issues a glock in .40. However there is a list of other sidearms approved for carry, which include several SIG's. State and local agencies have an even more expansive list of acceptable sidearms to choose from. Furthermore most agencies are far more lenient in regards to secondary/backup weapons.

However none of this really has to do with the point I was addressing. Patrolling the border with the best handgun available is still being undergunned.

As far as the shotgun and M4 go, that was exactly what I was referring to. Its one thing if these traficantes and coyotes open up with an M60, but from the reports I've seen its only been sporadic rifle and pistol fire. As a result, an officer with a M4 (preferably a full length M16 variant) should not be undergunned.

Again I'm not suggesting that anyone make any charges up San Juan Hill. However, an agent or 2 armed with a couple of semi auto rifles should have enough firepower to either bug out, or dissuade the bad guys from doing what they are doing.

 

[ahenry]

Destructo6 is exactly right; BPA’s had better not be caught with a firearm not issued. Be that as it may, I think an additional problem is that the nature of a PA’s job is a study in compromise between maximizing sound tactics and accomplishing the job. Let me explain.

For a lot of what a PA does, tracking a group for hours and miles in triple digit heat and then sprinting after them for a hands on arrest, a slung long arm is a impediment. Sound tactics, as in safety first, would suggest he carries a long arm. However, ask any PA that’s ever chased a bunch of people that have lived their entire lives walking everywhere and know that speed is their best friend, and he’ll tell you that anything that slows him down lessens his chance of success. Not to mention trying to tackle somebody with a long arm slung over his torso isn't exactly "fun". The fact that the majority of the time a long arm is not needed and is actually an impediment to successfully doing the job, means that many times a PA isn’t going to have a long arm with him when he needs it. I could probably delve into that a bit deeper, but suffice it to say, the compromise a PA makes between the best of tactics and maximizing his chances of catching people out in the brush, is a very large reason why a PA might find himself “outgunned”.

 

[ahenry]

Uh Stage 2, he is referring to the Border Patrol. You know, the guys actually working the border. They are prohibited from using any firearm other than an agency issued one.* What the FBI is allowed to carry doesn't really amount to a hill of beans since I have never ever heard of an FBI agent out patrolling the border trying to stop dope or wets from crossing. For that matter, I've rarely ever heard of the DEA doing that either. They usually ask the Border Patrol to watch a particular area. State police, local police, county sheriff, FBI, DEA, ATF, ICE, Secret Service, none of them really go hangin' out on the border. The border just isn't a place too many people feel like hanging around. That is unless it's their job to.


*In past years agents could carry personally owned firearms as long as they were the same as the issued weapon. That isn't the case anymore.

 

[STAGE 2]

State police, local police, county sheriff, FBI, DEA, ATF, ICE, Secret Service, none of them really go hangin' out on the border.

I'll grant you that things have changed since my father retired 5 years ago. However to say that (then) customs agents and DEA don't really go hanging around the border is complete bunk. I guarantee you that his office didnt send agents to places like san ysidro, otay mesa, el paso, and calexico for the scenic allure. However thats beside the point.

Sound tactics, as in safety first, would suggest he carries a long arm.

My point exactly.

However, ask any PA that’s ever chased a bunch of people that have lived their entire lives walking everywhere and know that speed is their best friend, and he’ll tell you that anything that slows him down lessens his chance of success. Not to mention trying to tackle somebody with a long arm slung over his torso isn't exactly "fun".

No one said the job was supposed to be fun or easy. Everyone has limitations as far as sprinting ability goes (providing the particular officer isn't some fat slob or some musclehead). And it goes without saying that carrying a rifle slows a person, but the alternative is getting caught with your pants down or worse.

I have no sympathy for someone who bitches about how heavy a rifle is or how hot it gets. I have no doubt there are many on this board who have had similar experiences with rifles much heavier than an AR plus about 40-60lbs of gear and not some cushy Bronco to sit in.

The fact that the majority of the time a long arm is not needed and is actually an impediment to successfully doing the job, means that many times a PA isn’t going to have a long arm with him when he needs it.

I whole heartedly agree. I wouldn't be surprised if a rifle was needed/used in 1% only all arrests/situations. However when John Q Agent makes the conscious decision to leave the rifle behind or not have the sense to have one in the truck, whether his reason is speed, weight or it doesn't match his socks, the only person to blame is himself. You can't play the odds and then complain when they don't roll in your favor even if the chances are slim to none. I'm inclined to think that this may be a case of "I almost got my ass shot off because I left it in the truck/at home but it would sound much better to say I was undergunned."

I'm not bagging on BP agents. They have one of the hardest jobs in law enforcement as far as I'm concerned. However the things that I have said aren't standards that have been pulled out of some hat or simply made up. They are from the example of federal agents as well as border patrol agents that have "been there" done their job extremely well and most importantly came home to their families at the end of every shift. Unless illegals have grown a new pair of legs or have learned to fly, catching them on foot or otherwise hasn't changed. Thus these principles still apply.

 

[Destructo6]

I'll grant you that things have changed since my father retired 5 years ago. However to say that (then) customs agents and DEA don't really go hanging around the border is complete bunk. I guarantee you that his office didnt send agents to places like san ysidro, otay mesa, el paso, and calexico for the scenic allure. However thats beside the point.

Dude, those guys don't go more than 50 feet east or west of the port of entry. And, they sure as heck don't go hiking into the backs of canyons or into the brush.

 

[ahenry]

Stage 2

However to say that (then) customs agents and DEA don't really go hanging around the border is complete bunk. I guarantee you that his office didnt send agents to places like san ysidro, otay mesa, el paso, and calexico for the scenic allure. However thats beside the point.

Technically you’re totally correct, but you missed the point I was trying to make with the term “hanging out on the border”. Working a POE is totally different than working between the POE’s, which is what the Border Patrol is specifically tasked with. Chasing down a group that is twenty, fifty or 100 miles or more from the nearest sort of civilization is what the PA does. You should note that almost every single one of these shooting incidents occurred way out in the middle of nowhere. Not right on the edge of a city or town.

No one said the job was supposed to be fun or easy. Everyone has limitations as far as sprinting ability goes (providing the particular officer isn't some fat slob or some musclehead). And it goes without saying that carrying a rifle slows a person, but the alternative is getting caught with your pants down or worse.

I think you missed my point. This has nothing to do with a PA’s physical ability. It has everything to do with the nature of a PA’s job. For a PA there are times that carrying a long arm can essentially mean he is unable to catch the very people it is his job to catch. Ask any PA, out in the brush pointing a rifle at somebody trying to run away doesn’t stop them, it makes them run faster. Totally aside from a PA’s ability to run is the fact that almost 100% of the arrests a PA makes require him to go “hands on”. Almost nobody is complacent out in the brush. Have you ever tackled and then wrestled with somebody with a long arm slung to your chest? It doesn’t work very well. As I said, it’s the nature of the PA’s job. Sound tactics from a safety standpoint usually don’t mesh very well with effectively accomplishing the job.

However when John Q Agent makes the conscious decision to leave the rifle behind or not have the sense to have one in the truck, whether his reason is speed, weight or it doesn't match his socks, the only person to blame is himself.

I totally agree. I said everything I did to make the point that for a PA the choice isn’t a simple “safety vs. comfort” like it is with most law enforcement. Sure, sometimes a PA knows he’s going to work a hot area or something. More often than not though, his choice to carry a long arm on his person is a tough call and boils down to this: should he take the long arm and ensure his personal safety, or should he leave it in the vehicle and maximize his chances of catching everybody in the group he’s chasing? Of course, laziness and complacency sometimes come into play as well, but less often than you might suspect. BTW, you do realize that for a PA to “leave the rifle...in the truck” means that it’s probably at least a good half hour away from wherever it is he is when he needs it.

the things that I have said aren't standards that have been pulled out of some hat or simply made up. They are from the example of federal agents as well as border patrol agents that have "been there" done their job extremely well and most importantly came home to their families at the end of every shift. Unless illegals have grown a new pair of legs or have learned to fly, catching them on foot or otherwise hasn't changed. Thus these principles still apply.

The things I’ve said aren’t pulled out of some hat either. They are the realities facing Border Patrol Agents that not only have “been there done that” still are there doing that. There are some PA’s floating around on this board. Ask them.