US lawmen outgunned in firefights along Mexican border

Funny how this stuff doesn't get much press. Do we need to get some sheriffs or other American citizens killed, before the media decides it's worth talking about?

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http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51080

U.S. lawmen outgunned along Mexican border
Bad guys have superior firepower, can eavesdrop on communications of American law enforcement

Posted: July 17, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Joseph Farah

Hundreds of rounds of automatic-weapons fire rained down on South Texas sheriff's deputies and Border Patrol agents from the Mexican side of the border as they investigated a horror story told by two American brothers who fled across the Rio Grande fearing for their lives.

Several Hidalgo County deputies and at least four Border patrol agents were met with a sustained hail of gunfire alternating from the south to the east and lasting nearly 10 minutes, the officers said.

Yet, not a single shot was returned by the deputies or the Border Patrol officers last Wednesday night because they were outmanned and outgunned – a condition increasingly common along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border, say law enforcement officials.

"This is one of the reasons that I do not allow my deputies to patrol the riverbanks or levies close to the river," explained Sheriff Lupe Treviño, "because we do know there are drug gangs and human trafficking gangs that will not hesitate to shoot in our direction to get us out of the area."

U.S. police officers and Border Patrol agents facing superior firepower from drug cartels, criminal street gangs and human smugglers based in Mexico? Yes, say law enforcement officials – and the situation is getting worse, not better.

Sigifredo Gonzales Jr., sheriff of Zapata County, Texas, recently testified in startling detail before a congressional committee how his officers are facing overwhelming odds in any confrontation with the criminal gangs who consider the border their turf.

"The cartels operating in Mexico and the United States have demonstrated that the weapons they possess can and will be used in protecting their caches," he said. "One informant familiar with the operations of these cartels mentioned to us that the weapons we use are water guns compared to what we will have to come up against if we ever have to. These cartels, known to frequently cross into the United States, possess and use automatic weapons, grenades and grenade launchers. They are also experts in explosives, wiretapping, counter-surveillance, lock-picking and GPS technology. They are able to monitor our office, home and cellular phone conversations. The original members of this cartel were trained in the United States by our government."

Gonzales was one of several law enforcement officials who testified before the Committee on House International Relations Subcommittee on International Terrorism and Nonproliferation on what they see as a serious terrorist threat at the Mexican border.

These powerful criminal gangs would not think twice about bringing terrorists or even weapons of mass destruction into the U.S. if the price was right, the officials agreed. Some of them believe they have already arrived.


(Full text of the article can be read at the above URL)
 
Yet, not a single shot was returned by the deputies or the Border Patrol officers last Wednesday night because they were outmanned and outgunned – a condition increasingly common along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border, say law enforcement officials.

Right, you don't engage in self defense if the other side has superior power. Got it. What a load of horse hockey.

They may not have engaged, but it wasn't because they were outgunned and outmanned. Maybe the deputies operate under a policy of compliance so that they won't get hurt?

"This is one of the reasons that I do not allow my deputies to patrol the riverbanks or levies close to the river," explained Sheriff Lupe Treviño, "because we do know there are drug gangs and human trafficking gangs that will not hesitate to shoot in our direction to get us out of the area."

Maybe this explains it. Trevino doesn't allow his guys to patrol areas where their job might be dangerous.
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I know, the source for this story sucks and the quotes are probably out of context. Since this is what is presented, I am assuming they are in context from a reputable souce.
 
a friend of mine and i were talking a few days ago. if they pay was right, both of us would be down there on the border right now working. that's probably the biggest problem. those counties are so poor, they don't pay very well, don't have a lot of people, and can't afford the proper equipment.
 
ChrisTx said:
a friend of mine and i were talking a few days ago. if they pay was right, both of us would be down there on the border right now working. that's probably the biggest problem. those counties are so poor, they don't pay very well, don't have a lot of people, and can't afford the proper equipment.

Too bad our gov't won't hire "civilian contractors" (a la Iraq) to bolster the BP's efforts... :mad:
 
It doesn't get much press because it is all bearthread.

Hundreds of rounds? No bullet holes to take pictures of? No denuded hillsides? No shots back in response?

Shakedown operation of the federal taxpayer. Border residents whine and I pay. Typical.:barf:
 
Too bad the government laid off several hundred border guards just last year and cut their budget substantially, and then did all that bull with the 400 national guard they managed to get in that have no power to do anything but cost substantially more than the border guards would, eitherway I don't think people be happy until the border guard can respond with jdams. The way they want a buildup we have the same problem as one the Mexican side of the border with rocket launchers, rpgs and such.
 
Would should just hit the other side with artillery when there is fire like that. But we might hurt the poor people that want to come here to work:barf: ?
 
Story here is revealing

I think this is more what is happening, not some war zone as thought.

*****
Border project shouldn't look like war, founder says in capital.
By Peter Hecht -- Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 12:01 am PDT Thursday, July 20, 2006
Story appeared on Page A3 of The Bee

Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist said Wednesday that he would prefer that his citizen volunteers leave their guns at home when patrolling the border against illegal immigration.
"This is not a war. We do not want it to look like a war. Lose the cammies (camouflage gear). Lose the weapons," Gilchrist said Wednesday in an interview before a speech to the Sacramento Press Club.

But Gilchrist said he won't prevent retired law enforcement officers with legal permits from carrying concealed weapons on Minuteman patrols on the U.S.-Mexico border.


A year ago, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger called a Los Angeles radio station and lauded "Minutemen" volunteers -- whose patrols are intended to dramatize immigration and a porous border -- for doing a "terrific job."
While continuing to praise the group, Schwarzenegger has since said he's not comfortable with television images showing armed volunteers participating in Minuteman patrols.

"I'm not for any harassment. I'm not for anyone carrying weapons. I'm not for any of that," the governor said last week at a campaign stop at a Mexican restaurant in Lynwood.

Gilchrist called the governor's remarks "a valid complaint for anybody." But he said he won't take "the law into my hands" and order former law enforcement officers legally allowed to carry guns to leave them behind.

"Someone with a 9 mm in his jacket is not a threat compared to drug runners and human cargo cartels" on the border, Gilchrist said.

As Gilchrist turned out for the Press Club appearance, he was greeted by a protester in Revolutionary War-era "Minuteman" garb and a Schwarzenegger mask who held a sign: "Thank you Arnold! For Supporting Us -- Anti-Immigrant Border Vigilantes."

Gilchrist, whose group was called vigilantes by President Bush, has ridden the intense debate over illegal immigration to become a national figure.

An unsuccessful independent congressional candidate from Orange County, Gilchrist appeared before the Press Club to promote a new book he co-authored and a new round of Minuteman Project patrols on the U.S.-Mexico border between Sept. 11 and the Nov. 7 election.

A press release for his book -- "Minutemen: the Battle to Secure America's Borders" -- described it as an "action plan to secure America's borders and prevent illegal aliens from further attacks."

The book was co-authored by Jerome Corsi, whose earlier book -- "Unfit for Command" -- created a political verb as Democrats assailed him for unfairly "Swift-boating" the Vietnam War record of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry.

Schwarzenegger, meanwhile, on Wednesday criticized congressional hearings on immigration issues scheduled this summer around the country.

"It's inexcusable that they are now going to take this whole thing on a road show," the governor said in San Francisco during a question-and-answer session after speaking to the Commonwealth Club of California. "What did they do for the last 20 years? I mean, why start now? By now they should have the facts and figures in and they should go and make a decision. But only because it is an election year, they refuse to really go there."

House and Senate committees have held hearings on rival versions of immigration reform legislation, including one in San Diego earlier this month, and more are scheduled.


About the writer:
The Bee's Peter Hecht can be reached at (916) 326-5539 or phecht@sacbee.com. Herbert A. Sample of The Bee San Francisco Bureau contributed to this report.
*****

HQ
 
Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist said Wednesday that he would prefer that his citizen volunteers leave their guns at home when patrolling the border against illegal immigration.
"This is not a war. We do not want it to look like a war. Lose the cammies (camouflage gear). Lose the weapons," Gilchrist said Wednesday in an interview before a speech to the Sacramento Press Club.

I wonder where he & his entourage leave their guns when they do their time on border patrol? :rolleyes:

I'll stick with Ranch Rescue, please....
 
Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist said Wednesday that he would prefer that his citizen volunteers leave their guns at home when patrolling the border against illegal immigration.
"This is not a war. We do not want it to look like a war. Lose the cammies (camouflage gear). Lose the weapons," Gilchrist said Wednesday in an interview before a speech to the Sacramento Press Club.

He sounds like a shepherd, leading his sheep into a valley of wolves, intentionally hobbling them to be easier prey. Can you say shameless martyr?

Nothing like having your Minutemen army NOT be confrontational by having them get into the faces of illegal aliens at a dropoff point with a video camera. Only morons would engage in such behavior and not expect to get attacked. You wouldn't get in the faces of crack dealers with a camera while they sell crack and not expect to get them pissed off at you, but they seem surprised they were attacked. Go figure!

http://760kfmb.com/rick_blog/?p=113

After all, what could go wrong if the Minutemen are out there, patrolling the border in blaze orange outfits and snapping pictures of aliens and not armed. What could possibly go wrong?

If their job is to observe, document, and report, would it not be in their best interest to be as clandestine as possible? If you are sending people up against desparate migrants, some of whom may be very dangerous or their coyotes may be very dangerous, then would you not think you would want your unarmed sheep to go as unnoticed as possible? Self preservation is not rocket science.
 
Right, you don't engage in self defense if the other side has superior power. Got it. What a load of horse hockey.
You don't engage when you don't have a good target, more like. It's not uncommon for smugglers to take wild potshots from unseen locations on the southside. And, since US LEOs are responsible for every round...
Shakedown operation of the federal taxpayer. Border residents whine and I pay. Typical.
Right. Or is that kinda like midwest residents whine after getting hit by another tornado/flood and the rest pay?
 
KS Freeman,
It doesn't get much press because it is all bearthread.

Hundreds of rounds? No bullet holes to take pictures of? No denuded hillsides? No shots back in response?

Shakedown operation of the federal taxpayer. Border residents whine and I pay. Typical.
You’ve got to be kidding me. You really expect us to believe you think that that many gov’t employees are complicit in a lie about how many rounds were fired at them, or that they fabricated the entire incident solely in order to garner more money for their agency?! That’s especially silly considering that those actually telling the story don’t get one dime more in their paycheck no matter how big the agency budget gets. :rolleyes: Moreover, your belief that hundreds of rounds would leave some evidence is misplaced. First, don’t forget that we’re talking about scrub brush at best, and possibly very little brush at all. I’ve personally seen locations along the border that have seen at least 75 rounds fired, more likely an excess of 100 rounds, including rounds hitting the target (target left scene), and you’d never know it. No broken branches, no disturbed earth, nothing. This is out in the middle of nowhere, there often isn’t much of anything for rounds to leave their mark on.

Secondly, how do you know that there actually isn’t any evidence of rounds fired? Did you see anything in any of the numerous articles about this that say they don’t have any evidence? No article I’ve read about this incident says there is or is not any evidence of shots fired at BP and Sheriff’s Deputies or how many rounds were fired. Why do you automatically assume there isn’t any evidence? You really seem to have an agenda here regarding illegal immigration and the violence along the border. Careful, your bias is showing.
 
ahenry, yes to both (the fabrication and the conspiracy), bureaucrats lie to build bigger empires; as Weber said, that is what they do once they lose sight of their goals. "Drugs", "crime", "gangs", inter alia are all used to to expedite federal funding, see e.g., War on Drugs or the VCCA of '94 and its myriad of giveaways.

If there was evidence of a gun fight, we would have the photographs.

I have no doubt that The Border is rough as it has always been, but so is Gary, Indiana. The Border is not special and should not receive a dime more of my tax money.
 
Outgunned is newspeak for: we can't hit anything with the guns we got.

We tragically had a police officer KIA here in Las Vegas this year. One of the first officers who responded killed the shooter. Within days we had another dramatic shootout where a guy was barracaided in an apartment. The police were shooting at him as he fired out the window. All around the window were obvious bullet holes in the stucco. There were bullet holes six feet from the window or more. The news story carried the message that our local police need rifles because they are outgunned. I have no problem with our officers carrying rifles but the lack of rifles wasn't the problem. They could have stopped the guy with a handgun: IF THEY HAD HIT HIM. Missing him by six feet with a rifle is going to have the same result as missing him by six feet with a handgun. Missing him by six feet is worse than not firing at all and is just as effective as throwing the morning paper at him.
Only hits count.
You can carry anything from a pea shooter to a nuclear weapon and if you don't hit the target, it will be ineffective.
 
If there was evidence of a gun fight, we would have the photographs.
Nonsense. The only photographs this type of crime scene are going to be evidence. There aren't going to be throngs of AP photographers swarming a desert crime scene, so the only photos will be those taken by the investigators. That's a fact. I have first-hand knowledge of several border shootings that didn't even make the local papers, let alone national media.
The Border is not special and should not receive a dime more of my tax money.
As a matter of fact, the international border is special. If you can't understand why the line between a sovereign United States and Mexico is unlike anywhere else in the world (ie special) we have no common frame of reference from which to base a discussion.
They could have stopped the guy with a handgun: IF THEY HAD HIT HIM.
Easy to say when you are shooting paper. All together different when the target doesn't hold still and shoots back.
 
"Easy to say when you are shooting paper. All together different when the target doesn't hold still and shoots back."

Which of course has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is being "outgunned". If a single target is the threat and you are shooting and missing him by six feet, the weapon he has vs. the weapon you have is not an issue. You are not "outgunned" you are simply missing the target.
 
Des, I disagree. If there was a gunfight and not the bs that the Sheriff is spewing you can bet the Sheriff would have taken the press out for photographs or photos would be released to the press. The only fight going on down there is a fight to take more of my tax money.

The Mexican border has always been rough, but so are many other places. Those other places do not receive tax money just because of where they are. The border should not receive any special privileges (which is what all this border bearthread is all about) either.
 
This is *not* a meme that pro-gun folks are going to want to gain traction; "cops are out-gunned".
I guarantee you that it'll result in broader powers for the ATF and more crack-downs on RKBA near the border.
 
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