US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan

Handy, thank you for being eloquent.

Some of you guys are missing out as the SS is no longer hiring. :rolleyes:

You know, I quit using the "well they did something worse" excuse when I was a toddler. In the US Army, we shouldn't have to justify things that way. I'm damn proud of our soldiers and what makes me sad is that when some numbnuts do these things it makes them all look bad.

UT air assault said:
Is that the America you dream of? Where we can do anything we want to people, just because they are "insurgents" or "terrorists" (or "unter-mench" perhaps). No one deserves to be treated like that and if it is condoned by society, it's a slippery road that leads to Auschwitz or Dachau.
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I don't much care.

We havn't captured soldiers.

We have captured terrorists who wear no uniform other than civilian dress. Worth noting, that these scum don't have rights. They arn't protected under any treaty or anything like that.

We've given them plently, most of them eat better and live better than our troops do.

Personally, I don't know why the guys who were killing our troops are let to live, they are nothing more than bloodthirsty thugs; not true soldiers of honor.
 
please.............

Ok,

Lets treat them better than our own civil type criminals in the corrections systems.... Oh, wait we are already doing that....5 praying times a day, 3 high energy and nutrition valued meals. The enemy is gaining 13-15 pounds per year in custody. We sure are putting it to them in a rough nature.

Music pumped into cells, dogs used to make the detained nervous, women looking at them, getting only 4 hours of sleep between questioning....... Wow, that is some very low blow stuff.... Yep, we are one bad and nasty nation of cold S.O.B.'s I agree. Should we send all these nice enemy combatants to your local jail? It might get a little rough to find a safe spot in our system for them. You know that might just be the thing to do with these fine folks. I think our prison population would take them in with open arms :D

These are an enemy force that refuses to uniform itself, this an enemy that flies commercial planes into buildings filled with unarmed civilians of many nations and religious backgrounds, this an enemy that beats and belittles it's own wives and women of it's communities, this an enemy that after being held once at GITMO and released, returns to fight U.S. Forces again, this an enemy that hates western values and ideals enough to commit suicide to commit an act to kill others.......... Yes, these fine combatants deserve special rights for sure.................................... Get real
 
"Until we start chopping peoples heads off, executing them in the street with bombs, or hanging burning bodies from bridges -

I DON'T WANT TO HEAR TORTURE AND US (MILITARY,FBI,CIA,...) USED IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH"


took the words right out of my mouth.
 
How long before its okay to torture citizens who an administration feels are enemies to the US and dont wear a uniform are enemy combatants not protected by law?


"During oral argument, the government brought up a side issue that, while it may not relate directly to Comollari, could become extremely relevant in other cases. The government's lawyer argued that the definition of torture does not necessarily cover assassination - if the assassination is a "painless death."

Judge Easterbrook then summarized the government's position: the Torture Convention does not bar assassinations provided they are done cleanly and lead to instant death.

The government attorney did not deny the summary's accuracy - and when challenged, repeated that she had "been instructed not to concede this point." Her comment indicates that internal DOJ discussions may be continuing to take place about how to most narrowly define torture. "
 
Hmmm........

Earth calling Orson.....................Come in Orson..................

Earth calling Orson.....................Come in Orson................... :D

Mork is that you?



Seems that combatants attacking U.S. and Coalition Forces might get a little different treatment than a U.S. Citizen who for what reason only God knows, plan and blow up a federal building in Oklahoma City. There is a difference in the criminal that are spoken of here. One is an enemy combatant fighting against the United States. The other criminals were American Citizens when they did that act.........
 
Gburner,

You seem to have missed my point. Who is qualified to determine who is a "enemy combatant without legal status" and "wants us dead"? You? Is it anyone who opposes US foreign policy? Anyone who looks like they might be "bad guys"?

We could use Jonathon's criteria and declare any group that can't afford uniforms as criminals. :rolleyes:


I think Eghad and Heist understand the problem. Making up new definitions for certain people, then using that as an excuse to violate our own laws and customs is not the way civilized people behave. And yes, last I checked, we were considered civilized. Let's keep it that way. My Lai is supposed to be an exception - not a policy.
 
There is an Australian Citizen being held at Guantanemo Bay. There is no evidence that he fired at US or Australian Soldiers. His crimes appear to be youth and immaturity.

He is being denied a trial by jury and will be tried by a Kangaroo Court that will afford him in all probability a lesser standard of justice than if he were tried according to the laws applicable to Australian or American citizens.

When this type of activity occurs- and when such people are tortured the liberty that each of us enjoy is eroded because the checks and balances present in both our legal systems are not working and the government is getting away with the denial of liberty.

Justice is not something we can apply selectively- Justice should be for all. Otherwise you have failed your founding fathers and yourselves.
 
My, Handy, aren't we full of ourselves,

Let me get my paper and pencil so I can draw a diagram for you.

Peope who fight without uniform have historically been treated by civilized nations as unlawful combatants, not enemy soldiers. It is their choice to wear civvies 'cause it facillitates blending in with the indigenous peeps, not because they don't have enough scratch to buy a set of cammies at the local 'BDU's ARE US'. When captured, historically speaking, these types are usually summarily executed by civilized nations. Do we do that?
NOOOOOOOOO. We send them to a Carribean freaking island, feed and house them better than they ever had and accomodate their religious requirements including prayer breaks during interrogation. They get plenty of exercise and better health care than most Americans and all on our nickel. All they have to do is talk to the man with the clip board. Musics too loud, AC is too cold, required to stand at attention too long, accidentally drop the Koran and OOPS...well, I guess we just can't help but 'torture' folks this way. Don't make me laugh.

You think Eghad and Heist understand the problem because, like you, they seem to lap up and regurgitate the defeatist sophistry of the left wing press, walking around with 'NY TIMES STOOGE' tatooed on your foreheads. I saw you described in a previous post as an 'independent thinker'; hardly. Ali Baba gets woke every four hours to answer some questions and all of the sudden were burnin' babies again with Lt. Calley at My Lai. You guys are a real piece of work. Kumbaya, my friend.
 
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Ok......

Ok, great lets set up the world court then......... since most of the world was not in favor of action against Iraq this should go real fast...... release all of the detained, heck it's only fair because it is possible a few shouldn't be in jail at all. If we can't make it clear and fair all the way from left to right we should just let them all out? :eek: Too much money anyhow to detain or bring them to a U.S. court to be filmed and circused around and found not guilty for some reason.........after 8-10 months of tax payers covering the bill. Yes, that settles it all......... When they (enemy) return to finish the deeds they started I hope it is upon all the folks whom wanted them to have a fair and real trial....and treat them better than our own..... Your not selling me any eggs Mr. Johnson. Sir, I know you only raise ducks at your place... ;)

Seems that at one point I stated it's true no system is 100% but at this point it seems close and likely is the best option available....GITMO, that is....
 
G,

I did not use the word "torture", other posters did when they said they support it. They did not say they were for "interrogation techniques". What the hell are you reading?

if the torture saves our people then I hope they get the battery charger hooked up right.
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Where do you get support for airconditioning from that statement, buddy?
 
You think Eghad and Heist understand the problem because, like you, they lap up the defeatist sophistry of the left wing press, walking around with 'NY TIMES STOOGE' tatooed on your foreheads.

LOL...dont think so my friend

I find it funny that when there is no argument to make it isnt long before name calling starts...

you are either against us or for us....

I defend your right to express you opinions... have done so for 28 years and 11 months till I was retired for medical conditons after a deployment overseas in the "Global War on Terrorism"

I support the war in Afghanistan and the War in Iraq....despite the administrations bumbling and ineptitude in OIF.

So keep up the name calling must be hitting a nerve....
 
You think Eghad and Heist understand the problem because, like you, they lap up the defeatist sophistry of the left wing press, walking around with 'NY TIMES STOOGE' tatooed on your foreheads.
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...

Speechless. Just because I'm not chanting Rah rah kill them a-rabs yeehaw I'm some lefist stooge. I'm sure the next step would be for you to call me an America hater and that if I don't like how things are done I should just go to France. And I'm one of the more kill-the-terrorists types.

One thing that really ticks me off is that anything the leftist socialist complete anti-bush crowd talks about or complains about immediately becomes a verboten topic for serious discussion, effectively making it impossible to intelligently discourse on anything relevant that happens to reflect negatively against republicans / neocons / the administration, by labeling anyone who brings it up as a wimpy latte drinking stooge of the DUmmie camp. All anyone can say without being labeled as a limpwristed french buffoon who wants to damage collective morale by the internet chest beating types is a bleat of affirmation to the other keyboard rangers and another for their statements. I would like to note that it is extremely refreshing to not see that happening here very much at all.

That type of groupthink, though, is stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Quasar stupid. It will destroy our ability to use critical thinking when it comes to any person, group or thing we have allegiance to.

I would say only one fiftieth of the things leftists squawk about actually are issues that can effect us all and should be examined from both sides. For the moment, the leftists make stinks about things we support, and when Bush or conservative officials in general do something we don't support, they don't whine, because they are usually in agreement.

It's a great tactic for statist super patriots to use, though. Suppose there were actually some evidence for something damaging to Bush, or our military adventures overseas, or Condi Rice that really ticked the leftists off, and had implications against everyone. I doubt that anyone who tried discussing it on most internet forums would go three posts on it before being called names and told how they should be killed for disrespecting America.

Sometimes I lay awake at night wishing I could go bring back Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and the other founding fathers. :(

Also. Set aside for the moment the whys of why we are invading. If we ever happened to go into some country on un-justified means (I am not saying Afghanistan or Iraq were unjustified), and the citizens of the country fight back in guerilla warfare without uniforms, much like you and I would against an invading foreign power. Are they justified? Or are they criminals for having the audacity to resist and killing our soldiers without wearing uniforms, because we declared war on them and that's that?
 
Handy...
YOU spoke of torture in your first post, before you drove the hyperbole bus off of the cliff with your ranting about the Nazis, the Japanese, My Lai, etc.
What the hell are YOU reading.

Eghad,
Thank you for your service to this country. There are members of this forum that you can contact if you want the straight dope on this issue. I think they'll set you straight.

Heist,
Me thinks thou doth protest too much...first you post the article, then you imply that anyone who doesn't have sympathy for the prisoners should be in the SS, then you whine when you get yer card pulled...typical.
 
G,

Again, what are you complaining about? My comments were directed directly at those who are in favor of TORTURE, and stated as much. Not interrogation or whatever.

Are you taking issue with me because you favor TORTURE, or because you didn't understand my posts? The kumbaya crap is pretty juvenile in a discussion about using electrodes on people.
 
Well let em step forth and set me straight.........

tell me that prisoners arent being transported to other countries to be tortured....

that prisoners are getting trials and not being moved around like a shell game.
 
Heist,
Me thinks thou doth protest too much...first you post the article, then you imply that anyone who doesn't have sympathy for the prisoners should be in the SS, then you whine when you get yer card pulled...typical.
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This is Mr. Straightforwardness:

stick_figure_small.jpg


Mr. Straightforwardness would like you to get to the point and say exactly what you think that means.

PS: I think some people who have a burning desire to torture people would be GREAT for the SS. Please do not put words in my mouth, it is impolite. I do not think that the average person with no sympathy for criminals would be a good SS candidate.

I guess Handy and Eghad and me are the Three Stooges now?
 
This is an excerpt for the Law of Land Warfare..........FM 27-10

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal. (GPW, art. 5.)

d. Further Proceedings. Persons who have been determined by a competent tribunal not to be entitled to prisoner-of-war status may not be executed, imprisoned, or otherwise penalized without further judicial proceedings to determine what acts they have committed and what penalty should be imposed therefore.

80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities
Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment.

I think it quite clearly says that the person has a right to be tried....even if they are not classified as a prisoner of war.
 
For the record...

I do not support US personnel utilizing methods which are commonly recognized as 'torture' to extract information from prisoners.

I do not believe that there is any widespread 'torture' by American personnel of prisoners under American supervision.

I believe that any isolated incidents involving extra legal or overzealous means employed by American personnel to extract information have been or are being currently dealt with.

I believe that the prisoners at Guantanamo are being treated far better than they should be or is being reported. These people should have been shot.

I believe that any 'reports' of torture are overblown, politically motivated and published with a desire to weaken morale and instill a defeatist attitude in the American public.

I believe that otherwise intellegent, prudent, patriotic individuals and groups can and are being deceived by the daily barrage of anti-American propaganda churned out by a leftist media.

I believe that the 'true believers' on the socialist-left in this country will say, do or believe anything, no matter how preposterous, that puts the current anministration in a bad light. It's grossly un-American, it borders on treason and it needs to stop.
finis
 
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