Unconscious competence in stress

Status
Not open for further replies.
...but rather a basic failure of mindset.
Click to expand...

The situation unfolded faster than Dinkheller could adapt. His adversary got inside his OODA Loop and Dinkheller was unable to cope with a new and rapidly changing, ambiguous situation. His efforts to control the situation produced failure upon failure which fueled an expectation of failure as he continued to fall behind mentally. His decision-making became more and more inappropriate as the situation progressed. He became confused and hollered conflicting verbal commands. He was unable to properly orient when the situation transitioned from ambiguity to obvious deadly intent. He collapsed mentally into defeat when he failed to quickly land any visibly incapacitating hits on an attacker who was determined to kill him.
 
The idea isn't that trigger pull is an important part of a self defense shooting -- although it might be past a certain distance.

What I'm curious about is if you took a single aspect of shooting, a small part that becomes autonomous with mastery. I imagine master shooters, at some point, aren't consciously thinking about a smooth pull and trigger reset during their strings.

I was wondering if a single autonomous aspect (or even multiple) might be so ingrained into your body that you would execute it cleanly even in a high stress scenario.

Constantine, I do at least dry fire draws every day for practice. The training is high on my list of priorities once money starts coming into my life. Unfortunately there's not too much in the way of FOF here to supplement raw skill straining, but there is a live fire simulator at my range that's supposed to be a pretty unique experience. Anyways, I believe much of what you've said is right on.

Also, thanks to the book that was recommended. I will look into that as well as Rory Miller, who is a name I am at least somewhat familiar with.
 
I was wondering if a single autonomous aspect (or even multiple) might be so ingrained into your body that you would execute it cleanly even in a high stress scenario.
Click to expand...

NO - simple answer. Enough stress can break this. Look at the research in freezing in professional athletic performance.

I hang out with some master level and Champion level shooters (one who comes in 2nd after Miculek at times. They brain fart in a local match at times - that's not under fire.

Constantine is on the money - before you put yourself forward as a firearms expert instructor - you need to spend significant time in more complex training than basic skills. I've hung out with the high end folks and they have such experience. Scenario training for stress inoculation has to be well planned and supervised. I try to get such practice when I can. It can be difficult and expensive.

We have too many folks who proclaim to be expert. Just read some of the experts from SWAT as they discuss the less than competent they have come across.
 
I was wondering if a single autonomous aspect (or even multiple) might be so ingrained into your body that you would execute it cleanly even in a high stress scenario.
Click to expand...

It becomes ingrained into your subconscious. The totality of your motor memory (effortless draw and presentation of the weapon into the line of sight) and sensory perception (seeing your sights blocked) all flow together. This assuming you have the mindset to shoot in the first place.

Is it foolproof? Hell no. Changing your gear all the time is a good way to ruin it.

Is it a significant edge in a fight? Bet my life on it.
 
Since you have experience with this type of training, how do I identify those that will give valuable lessons rather than just fluff? I'm going to work my way up from the bottom, starting with Defensive Handgun I and Defense Inside the Home because I want to do it right. However, it seems the ranges and schools in my area offer a "advanced pistol class" and then seemingly nothing beyond that. Occasionally there's a class taught by someone like Rob Pincus, which I think would be great to attend but they tend to be much more expensive.

I'm definitely not under illusion that I don't need training. I just don't have the money yet and I don't know where to find good instruction.

If this is off-topic we can take it to another thread or private message or something as I find the current topic informative.
 
I may be in the minority, but I believe that everyone should start with NRA Basic Pistol. (disclaimer, I am an NRA instructor certified to teach this class, but please note that nowhere do I advertise this on this site)

It's NOT a "defensive" or "tactical" class, but I think it's the best way to get a really solid foundation for basic safety and firearms knowledge.

Beyond that, there are many good options for learning the basics of using a pistol in a defensive role.

MOST of the nationally-known schools and instructors do a fine job and teach good techniques.
 
zombietactics,
Is Basic Handgun the same as First Steps? I have taken the First Steps and for some reason I was under the impression that they are the same.
 
Dakota, I'm not arguing with glenn at all. Get that advanced training when you can, but definitely try to master (as well as any one person can) the fundamentals. Its the same in any sport, crawl, walk, run. There is a lot of "fluff" out there, but goshdang... That is one thing that frustrates me about the the firearms community is a attitude of everyone else is an idiot except the person talking.

Not you, not anyone, in this thread..nobody get their dander up. But dang. We have a bunch of combat vets/LEOs out there. Guys that are combat proven. Seen the elephant.They don't need to be a Clint Smith or a insert famous gun person. Not saying it wouldn't be wonderful to train with big names, but don't shrug off anyone in the mean time.Believe it or not there are regular guys that have some experience even though we can't spell inoculated... innoculated..inockulated...you get the point... I reckon a fella that's been in a TIC probably learned something valuable.
 
Since you have experience with this type of training, how do I identify those that will give valuable lessons rather than just fluff?...
Click to expand...

Dakota, I'm guessing you directed that at Glen and he'd be the guy to answer it. I'm just an old shooter and LE Instructor.
 
Since I am a FOG, I decided that if I carry a gun - I should know something about it. Might be my scholarly bent.

So after taking NRA Personal Protection, I continued with Karl Rehn's Basic Pistol and then Advanced Tactical Series 1 through 7. LFI-1 from Mas, NRA Instructor Training for Pistol, an AR course, shotgun from Steve Moses and Tom Givens. Lots more from Insight, Givens, Steve Moses, Andy Standord, Claude's snubby class, some H2H and knife.

I went to the NTI three times where you got one of the best civilian FOF around. There were military and law there also. Then Given's Polite Society. Karl also had significant FOF components.

I regard them as more important than the shooting skills which are pretty easily mastered if you pay attention and then practice.

I shoot IDPA pretty consistently each month.

Luckily, I could manage to do such. I'm doing more training in 2014.

In most states, one can find by reviews and reputation - a good instructor who isn't a fraud.

I'm still a beginner compared to the best in my mind. It's like being a therapist (I'm not). I see kids who want to be a therapist because everyone talks to them in High School. Well, there is a ton of training to be done to be a real one to deal with severe problems. If I am going to carry an instrument of lethal force, I wanted more in my repertoire than the square range.

It is a personal decision - many folks defend themselves with no training. It is the nature of the average DGU that it works. But it can go bad. Look at the recent case with another individual who shoots an unarmed women through his screen door. I'd better you graduates of the major schools wouldn't be in his shoes. He just got charged. Now I'm sure some will say it is a good shoot but he's on trial - so someone says it's not.

PS - if I were to aspire to be an instructor - Tom Givens gives an excellent course to already competent shooters. BTW, making a full time living at it - would be very hard, unless you were at the top of the game. Many folks are associated with stores, consulting or other careers.

When I look at our Pax, Givens, Mas, Karl and others mentioned - I marvel at their skills and teaching techniques.
 
Last edited:
With disrespect meant for no one, including the officer, this did not appear to be a "OODA loop performance disintegration", but rather a basic failure of mindset
Click to expand...


Agreed, no disrespect to the fallen

I do not think it is a service to anyone when we marginalize OODA process by referring to anything and everything as OODA failure.
 
Last edited:
First, how about some help for those of us not up on "tac-ronyms"? I can figure out some of them, but what the hell is OODA loop? The convention when using terms is the first time used, they should be defined (written out), so that us dumb shirts know what it means the rest of the time we see those initials.

What I have read, and my real life experience is that under extreme stress, people will react the way they have been trained (either instruction or previous experience), or they will not. And there is no valid predictor when an individual will go one way, or the other.

What happens when there is no training (or no training that fits the situation as the individual involved recognizes it) most people will freeze up. A small number will do something random and unpredictable.

Its something individual, and apparently random. Someone mentioned the decorated combat vet freezing up, it does happen. Because someone has been through it before (successfully) is not a guarantee that the next time they meet the same, or similar stress levels, that they will react the same way. Most will, but some will not.

Could you develop that muscle memory for a perfect trigger pull and release, and do it, even under the most extreme stress? Yes, you can. But, you won't know you have, until/unless you get in that extreme stress situation. And when you are in that situation, you won't know you are doing it. You might recognize what you did, afterward, but I think the odds are against it.

Much more likely is that afterwards you will decide that is what you must have done, rather than have a conscious memory of each trigger pull or other small action.
 
This article - by the well know author Ron Avery - answers the OP question quite well.

Mr. Avery seems clued in to the research base on stress and performance. He makes a great point about how automatic processes can be mixed and inhibited by conscious processes under stress - a known cause for athletic freezing.

http://www.policeone.com/police-tra...ht-training-Competition-and-the-test-of-self/

It also makes a great argument that the square range is not sufficient for higher levels of performance training.
 
Thinking takes to long. Most of my violence training comes from working the door in Clubs in Liverpool UK.

1960 till 64, Cavern Club, Mathew St. 1965, Blue Angel, Seal St.

In a fist/boot/elbow/head butt (Liverpool Kiss) there are cues, hands up, and gestures, the tiny slide back of one foot, in a tight entrance, like the Cavern, one last check of mates, flicker of eyes, to one side, or the other.

A simple hand slap, to the side of the face, always on the opposite side of the lifted foot! They can not put the foot down in time to stop the fall off.

It takes around 6lbs of force to break a nose. Most likely a kick of that weight to the side of the knee? Game over.

Any hit, with anything, to the throat, devastating. You get good at it, by doing it. Trigger control, the trigger press, and short reset on a Glock 19? Make for very fast multiple hits, one hand or two. Having sixteen rounds to start off, can not be bad. Spare Glock 17 spare magazine helps (Malfunctions) the ability to do those magazine changes, under stress, IDPA is a good way to do that. Targets made of cardboard do not shoot back! Drawing/firing/mag changes, become second nature, that is worth while.

When practicing, do not just use double taps, try 3/4/5 shot strings, in a match, were the instruction could be Draw and fire 6 rounds at target #1.

So many times you do not hear a blast of 6 shots, but Bang-Bang, then a perceptible pause!

And remember, a bullet straight through the heart, still gives around 15 seconds of body and brain working.









The starting first helps!
 
Last edited:
A subconscious trigger press on a firearm is a lot like driving a car or playing a guitar...though the subconscious must feel that it has been trained in both single action and double action trigger pulls, in order for the subconscious to react in a fluid fast motion; especially in a stressful situation if the case arises. If the gun jams...the subconscious should have been previously taught to react and remedy the failure, in order to help prevent mind blocks.

According to Rob Leatham...it takes around 50,000 rounds to teach a human subconscious how to pull a trigger, with just letting you're conscious aim the sights, while letting the subconscious pull the trigger; with you're self conscious having complete control over the subconscious.
 
From the beginning of systemized fighting be it Knights in Europe or Samurai in the Orient. Men have trained to do things that are not natural to the point they become natural. Having someone swing a sharp piece of steel at your head and instead of just dying moving by trained reflex to parry the strike and counter has been done for centuries. Same with the modern battlefield.
Call it conditioned reflex, muscle memory, stress inoculation whatever you want it can be done and is. Does it always work? No, their are just too many variables under such stresses as encountered in battle. Individual or otherwise. Some well trained when first exposed to combat even with all the training they have gotten fall apart. Most have gotten to the point where their training takes over. Does stress change things? Of course. Can precise trigger control be maintained under such pressure? Snipers do it regularly. It comes down to the level of training, personal psychological make up, and circumstances. But yes it can and is done daily. And sometimes not!
 
I guess this is a question that's hard for any of us to know since most shooters don't often get in gunfights. Still, I'm wondering if there is some way to know.
Click to expand...

Grant Cunningham makes some relevant points in his Defensive Revolver Fundamentals. Worth the read through, even if you don't care about revolvers. (It's much more about training, than revolver specific.)

There is a expert level that can be reached. But, the sort of gunfights that normal people would experience are close quarters ambushes that are so stressful, and so rare that no one will achieve that level of expertise through personal experience. So, we learn from the aggregate experience of others.
 
I once read a post by a man who claimed to be so concerned about being attacked from the rear that he had trained himself to turn, draw and fire "automatically" any time he was on the street and heard a sound behind him. That seems to be the kind of unconscious action advocated by some self defense experts. But I don't think I want to be in the same county as a nutcase who shoots blindly without identifying a target or knowing whether the person making the noise is a murderous criminal or a kid on a skateboard.

I don't think "automatic reaction" or "unconscious response" is a really good idea, no matter which old West outlaw practiced it.

Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top