Unclear on the Concept...
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Sure, as soon as you all start thinking before you post.
To ask ALL Glock owners to be FORCED to accept a manual safety is wrong. If you don't LIKE glocks (for whatever reason), then please, PLEASE don't buy, touch or otherwise envolve yourselves with them. You may wet yourselves in fear.
If you MUST have a crutch (ie manual safety) to keep disregarding safe gunhandling, please inform the forum when you will be visiting the range, so I know when not to be there.
To ask ALL Glock owners to be FORCED to accept a manual safety is wrong. If you don't LIKE glocks (for whatever reason), then please, PLEASE don't buy, touch or otherwise envolve yourselves with them. You may wet yourselves in fear.
If you MUST have a crutch (ie manual safety) to keep disregarding safe gunhandling, please inform the forum when you will be visiting the range, so I know when not to be there.
the problem with your solution WR is that for those of us who do not want a manual safety on our Glocks (or other guns) is the possibility that the safety could inadvertantly become engaged the pistol would not fire when we expected it to, i like Glocks because when i pull the trigger it goes "bang" every time and when i do not pull the trigger it does not go "bang" every time, tedious to be sure but comforting, i do not want more levers and dohickies mucking up the works and/or possibly snagging on draw, though ugly the GLock has relatively smooth surfaces and whispers out of the holster with little effort, i for one will not give that up
Gottagetme1
New member
I consider my Glocks just as safe, as my 1911's, Sigs, etc. A Glock will only fire when you pull the trigger. PERIOD. Works for me! Why? Because that is what I want a gun to do, and because my finger NEVER goes inside that guard until I'm READY TO FIRE!
Dave
Dave
Rich Lucibella
Staff
-Sigh-
This thread is about to be abrubptly closed unless we can all learn to play well with others.
Rich
This thread is about to be abrubptly closed unless we can all learn to play well with others.
Rich
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Unclear on the Concept
to Andabeer:
Thanks for your response it was well thought out and intelligently put. I respect and understand your viewpoint on the subject of safeties that may accitdently be brushed on. I have owned many handguns in my life and the only problem I have had with safeties is when a poorly designed one often gets brushed off. I have never had a poorly designed safety get brushed on but I suppose it could happen. A well designed safety is unobtrusive but yet is still easily dissengaged when the moment arrives to fire the weapon. Life is often a double edged sord but the advantage of having a safety if needed on a weapon often far outweighs the tragic consequences of not having the option of using it when needed. Just my thoughts. W.R.
to Andabeer:
Thanks for your response it was well thought out and intelligently put. I respect and understand your viewpoint on the subject of safeties that may accitdently be brushed on. I have owned many handguns in my life and the only problem I have had with safeties is when a poorly designed one often gets brushed off. I have never had a poorly designed safety get brushed on but I suppose it could happen. A well designed safety is unobtrusive but yet is still easily dissengaged when the moment arrives to fire the weapon. Life is often a double edged sord but the advantage of having a safety if needed on a weapon often far outweighs the tragic consequences of not having the option of using it when needed. Just my thoughts. W.R.
I have owned and used Glocks since 1988 and have never had an accidental discharge. WHY? because I am smarter than the gun!! All guns MUST be handled as if they are loaded!!!never put the finger or any other appendage inside the trigger guard until ready to fire the darn thang!!! this is simple gun safety ! I carry a glock because it IS ready when I want or need it and I am comfortable with this knowledge. Some folks like revolvers as carry guns but one incedent I witnessed cured me of that idea.....we were riding motorcycles thru the Great Smokies one afternoon and we stopped for lunch. when my buddy got off the bike his revolver slipped out of the holster and fell to the ground and went off !!!! lucky thing is it missed everything and everyone . we all know that he should have had the hammer down on an empty chamber but he didn't. I won't carry a revolver as it is only safe when loaded with 5 or 4 rounds when my glock is loaded for bear and will not discharge if dropped !!!
This is true, However, IMHO somewhat irrelevant. Let me explain why I feel this way.
A Glock should be kept holstered in an appropriately/correctly designed holster. This would securely retain the weapon and prevent anything from "Getting Hooked" inside the trigger guard causing an AD. The loaded weapon should only "Not Be" in the holster when it has been drawn with the intent to fire it. Therefore, since you should at that time be in immediate and authoritive control of the weapon, nothing should be able to become "Hooked in the trigger guard" except your trigger finger. Furthermore, your finger should not be on the trigger till you are ready to fire.
For those that want to try and side step what I have said above I will add:
The weapon will also be out of the holster during maintenance and for some when stored. So when the loaded weapon is first removed from the holster, ALL gun handling safety rules should be being followed, and the first thing that is done is the weapon is "Unloaded", with the magazine removed and the slide locked back, Before it is even set down. With the magazine removed and the slide locked back, you remove that chance that the fool has an AD with a supposedly unloaded weapon.
So like I said, It is kinda irrelevant as if proper handling is exercised and a proper "well designed" holster is used, nothing should ever get hooked in the trigger guard.
I have owned and fired Glocks since the late 80's and never had an AD. I have owned and fired 1911,s since the early 80's and never had an AD. To me they are both equally safe in the hands of a competent/trained/observant person.
For those that do not like Glocks. Why bash them?? If you choose not to own one, more power to you. If you feel the need to say, "I personally don't like them", great share that, but isn't that all that is really necessary to say?? I don't like Beretta's, but you do not see me going around bashing them. It has been my experience that for the most part, those that choose to bash something, do so because of lack of understanding or they are simply jealous?
I will add this:
For those that would like to own a Glock and the main thing stopping you is the lack of a manual safety, then you are in luck as they are available in the aftermarket.
G L O C K MANUAL SAFETY KIT- - $75.00
For those wanting to purchase a Glock with a factory installed manual safety, well they are only available in a few countries (US is not one of them) and in some of those countries they are only available to LEO's and Military.
Glock with optional external 1911 style safety
However, please leave my Glocks as they are, without a manual safety. Thank You Very Much!!
One thing I would like to add about manual safeties:
They must me "Manually Activated". If someone can't remember to keep their finger off the trigger of a loaded gun unless they are ready to fire it, What makes people think they will remember to manually activate the safety?????? Furthermore, once activated, it is completely possible for it to be inadvertently and unknowingly deactivated, causing an AD because of poor gun handling practices from someone relying on a manual safety to keep them from firing their weapon instead of relying on good gun handling practices????
JM2¢W
__________________
Shoot Strait,
Michael
"Before a standing army may rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every Kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by force because the whole body of the people are armed." - Noah Webster, 1787
bad_dad_brad
New member
Gee Whiz folks! This discussion has become very emotional for sure! I own Glocks, DAO semi-auto's, SA semi-auto's, and DA revolvers. The only one that really makes me nervous is a hammer cocked DA or SA revolver. I have no problem with a cocked and locked SA semi-auto.
All that said, the closest I ever came to shooting my privates was one day when I shoved my Kahr MK9 in my waistband, and soon after retrieved it to put it away and my shirt got bunched up in the trigger and almost went boom! Ouch!!!
At that time, I became a true fan of the holstering of any gun without a safety.
A chambered Glock with a manual safety would just about be perfect in my mind.
All that said, the closest I ever came to shooting my privates was one day when I shoved my Kahr MK9 in my waistband, and soon after retrieved it to put it away and my shirt got bunched up in the trigger and almost went boom! Ouch!!!
At that time, I became a true fan of the holstering of any gun without a safety.
A chambered Glock with a manual safety would just about be perfect in my mind.
I bought my Glock because it doesn't have a manual safety. It's probably one of the main reasons why people bought Glocks. I turn my manual safety off if I carry a gun that has manual safety. If you're not comfortable with a gun that do not have manual safety then don't buy one. No one is forcing you to buy a Glock.
Question:
Is there more semiauto model that don't have manual safety (not a decocker) then those that do?
Question:
Is there more semiauto model that don't have manual safety (not a decocker) then those that do?
Jeez, People!
I didn't mean to bash Glocks - the one I fired functioned fine and the bullets went where I wanted them too.
I was just wonderin' about the tigger safety. Certainly, a responsible firearms owner/user only puts a finger (and no other appendage, I hope
) inside the trigger guard and on the trigger when ready to fire at something you mean to put a hole in to. but, what's the point of the trigger safety? If your finger is in the guard and on the trigger then you have decided to fire, why have a safety there. A grip safety on a 1911 makes sense to me - make sure the user has a firm grip before introducing recoil. I jist don' savvy the extra stramus on the Glock trigger.
I fyou like it and it works for you, use it- if not don't. I was just lookin' fer a good reason fer the thing. The best answer I saw was 'marketing'.
Now, I maybe mistaken or only heard a one sided comment, but it seems I saw an artiicle somewhere that said PD's using Glocks have experienced m ore ADs/NDs than with previous sidearms. IIRC it had somethin' ta do with the reholsteng process.
And I guess this may be considered a jab by some Glockers - but sayin' the pistol needs to be carried in an 'A-pproved' holster to be safe seems a little weak,. Unless they come witrh an approved holser from the mfg. It's like saying water don't leak outta my squirt gun as long as I keep the barrel from pointing down.
I didn't mean to bash Glocks - the one I fired functioned fine and the bullets went where I wanted them too.
I was just wonderin' about the tigger safety. Certainly, a responsible firearms owner/user only puts a finger (and no other appendage, I hope
) inside the trigger guard and on the trigger when ready to fire at something you mean to put a hole in to. but, what's the point of the trigger safety? If your finger is in the guard and on the trigger then you have decided to fire, why have a safety there. A grip safety on a 1911 makes sense to me - make sure the user has a firm grip before introducing recoil. I jist don' savvy the extra stramus on the Glock trigger.I fyou like it and it works for you, use it- if not don't. I was just lookin' fer a good reason fer the thing. The best answer I saw was 'marketing'.
Now, I maybe mistaken or only heard a one sided comment, but it seems I saw an artiicle somewhere that said PD's using Glocks have experienced m ore ADs/NDs than with previous sidearms. IIRC it had somethin' ta do with the reholsteng process.
And I guess this may be considered a jab by some Glockers - but sayin' the pistol needs to be carried in an 'A-pproved' holster to be safe seems a little weak,. Unless they come witrh an approved holser from the mfg. It's like saying water don't leak outta my squirt gun as long as I keep the barrel from pointing down.
I wasn't necessarily referring to you. I was making that statement in general. Never seems to fail, You can start a thread about Glocks and someone that doesn't like them has to jump in and start bashing them. They don't seem to be adult enough to just steer clear of the thread. They for some reason feel the need to jump in and start bashing it one way or another. I can understand constructive criticism, but that is usually not the case nor the way it is presented. Oh well, enough on that.
Here is my take on why it is there:
When doing certain things, like re-holstering for instance, it is entirely possible for the edge of the trigger to be brushed of caught on something. This little lever on the trigger prevents the trigger from moving rearward if it is caught on the edge/side of the trigger. If enough of the trigger is being engaged by something other than the trigger finger, then something incorrect is being done or used. This is one of the reasons it is always suggested that when a new holster is purchased, (for any weapon) to practice drawing and re-holstering the "Unloaded" weapon from it till you are comfortable with it and sure it will properly function with your particular weapon.
Actually when the grip safety first got introduced it was a passive safety just like the lever on the Glock trigger. Back then there was no such thing as a firing pin block or anything other than the manual safety. So if a 1911 had the manual safety disengaged and was dropped, the passive grip safety aided in preventing an AD due to the impact of the weapon on the ground.
Keep in mind that many LEO's have never handled, let alone fired a handgun, prior to doing so at the academy. Many do not like guns and guns are not the reason the became an LEO. However, due to their chosen profession, guns are a necessary evil. Many officers have a very hard time qualifying. They only practice when forced to do so by their department. And many (by all means not all) are all thumbs every time they get a gun in their hand. Many LEA's are trying to correct this by additional and better training. However, there are some people that will simply never become comfortable and proficient with a handgun. When you take a person like this and force them to carry and handle a gun every day, Accidents happen. Usually due to lack of knowledge and/or respect of the weapon, by the person suffering the AD.
Actually Glock does/did?? sell holsters for their weapons. Any quality holster from any of the quality holster mfg.'s. will work very well with a Glock when the holster in question is designed specifically for the Glock being holstered in it. (Note: A $20 nylon holster is not a quality holster, IMHO) DeSaints, Kramer, Galco, Safariland etc. all produce quality leather holsters that work very well and are very safe with a Glock. If the holster chosen uses a thumb-break retention system, (like most LE holsters do), a little time and care spent learning how to properly re-holster the weapon is not only important, but a wise move. I have carried a G20 in a Galco Fed-Paddle holster since 91 and never had any kind of problem either drawing or re-holstering it. Furthermore, if I remember correctly, many of the AD's experienced by LEO's during re-holstering have been linked to the fact that the trigger finger was inside the trigger guard and on the trigger when the weapon was put back in the holster. If someone feels that this is a concern that they personally need to be concerned with, then one of three things can be done.
1) Don't buy/own a Glock
2) Use the Saf-T-Block
3) Install the aftermarket manual safety on the weapon.
Pretty simple??
__________________
Shoot Strait,
Michael
"Political correctness is just tyranny with manners. I wish for you the courage to be unpopular. Popularity is history's pocket change. Courage is history's true currency." - NRA President Charleton Heston
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Unclear on the Concept
to MLP:
It was refreshing to read your well thought out comments about the Glock. I agree with much of what you had to say but I hope you will not be offended if I add a few of my own thoughts about your comments. No flame is intended.
On your reholstering comments I pretty much agree with you. I just would hope that people do not place much faith in the little safety located in the middle of the Glock trigger. A lot can happen while a Glock is being holstered or after it has been unholstered. And of course there have been to many people who attempted to place to much faith in that little safety and have actually carried the glock without a holster resulting in their being shot with their own weapon.
Your comments on the 1911 grip safety are very well thought out indeed.
Now for the comments on law enforcement officials. You again are very correct in your assessment of the training and mental attitude of some Law enforement people. The only comment that I will add is that most of them are definitely better off with the double action only automatic pistols. A pistol like the glock is just to dangerous for them to use. I think history has proven this without any doubt. A lot can happen in law enforcement and even the elite forces of the world when chosing a pistol must chose one that will be safe to the user and to people being taken into custody under stressfull conditions. Often these conditions are rough and tumble entries like the British SAS swinging on ropes and diving into apartments to rescue hostages. The British wisely choose the 1911 when they rescued a number of hostages during an incident that took place a number of years ago.
Judging from some of the less than educated responses that other people on this thread made against the professionalism of the British. The facts are these: They do have some of the best trained people in the world. The people who made these disparaging comments should pray we never have to go to war with these people. Their performance in the Faulklan Island's war and later in Desert Storm was first class in every way. I should have not been surprised by these comments. Many of the questions put to me after the recent movie entitled "Pearl Harbor" has shown me the average American knows little of his own history and absolutely none about foreign people or their capabilities. My apologies to any British person who happend to read any of these threads. Not all Americans harbor prejudicial views towards foreign people's of other countries. After all a large percentage of us came over hear from other countries at some time back in our ancestory. W.R.
to MLP:
It was refreshing to read your well thought out comments about the Glock. I agree with much of what you had to say but I hope you will not be offended if I add a few of my own thoughts about your comments. No flame is intended.
On your reholstering comments I pretty much agree with you. I just would hope that people do not place much faith in the little safety located in the middle of the Glock trigger. A lot can happen while a Glock is being holstered or after it has been unholstered. And of course there have been to many people who attempted to place to much faith in that little safety and have actually carried the glock without a holster resulting in their being shot with their own weapon.
Your comments on the 1911 grip safety are very well thought out indeed.
Now for the comments on law enforcement officials. You again are very correct in your assessment of the training and mental attitude of some Law enforement people. The only comment that I will add is that most of them are definitely better off with the double action only automatic pistols. A pistol like the glock is just to dangerous for them to use. I think history has proven this without any doubt. A lot can happen in law enforcement and even the elite forces of the world when chosing a pistol must chose one that will be safe to the user and to people being taken into custody under stressfull conditions. Often these conditions are rough and tumble entries like the British SAS swinging on ropes and diving into apartments to rescue hostages. The British wisely choose the 1911 when they rescued a number of hostages during an incident that took place a number of years ago.
Judging from some of the less than educated responses that other people on this thread made against the professionalism of the British. The facts are these: They do have some of the best trained people in the world. The people who made these disparaging comments should pray we never have to go to war with these people. Their performance in the Faulklan Island's war and later in Desert Storm was first class in every way. I should have not been surprised by these comments. Many of the questions put to me after the recent movie entitled "Pearl Harbor" has shown me the average American knows little of his own history and absolutely none about foreign people or their capabilities. My apologies to any British person who happend to read any of these threads. Not all Americans harbor prejudicial views towards foreign people's of other countries. After all a large percentage of us came over hear from other countries at some time back in our ancestory. W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
u
to Mlp:
Sorry but I forgot to mention you comment on the aftermarket manuel safety. This is one topic that I have mixed emotions on. I think that many times aftermarket items often prove less than ideal solutions to serious problems. If a person would install or have installed one of these after markets safeties he lets himself wide open to a lawsuit if the safety ever failed and someone was injured or killed. Also the warrenty of the Gun is voided and the manufacture also would have tremendous leverage on avoiding any responsiblity in a lawsuit that may indeed be proven in court that was part of the defective or less than safe design of the firearm.
On the other hand if the after market safety did work it could and probably would at sometime after it was installed save a life or avoid serious injury. This is certainly a tough one to call. But the best solution in my opinion is if the gun came from the manufacture with one to begin with.
I seriously think that sometime in the future Glock will either make this available as an option or they will be forced to put this on all of their models due to the outcome off a large future lawsuit. W.R.
to Mlp:
Sorry but I forgot to mention you comment on the aftermarket manuel safety. This is one topic that I have mixed emotions on. I think that many times aftermarket items often prove less than ideal solutions to serious problems. If a person would install or have installed one of these after markets safeties he lets himself wide open to a lawsuit if the safety ever failed and someone was injured or killed. Also the warrenty of the Gun is voided and the manufacture also would have tremendous leverage on avoiding any responsiblity in a lawsuit that may indeed be proven in court that was part of the defective or less than safe design of the firearm.
On the other hand if the after market safety did work it could and probably would at sometime after it was installed save a life or avoid serious injury. This is certainly a tough one to call. But the best solution in my opinion is if the gun came from the manufacture with one to begin with.
I seriously think that sometime in the future Glock will either make this available as an option or they will be forced to put this on all of their models due to the outcome off a large future lawsuit. W.R.