Unclear on the Concept...

Although I plan on one day buying a Glock17 (ie here in Australia there are no mag restrictions for pistols, surprisingly, so 17+1 9mm rounds in one gun definatley appeals to me.), all you Glock detractors will get a good laugh out of this -

" Funny things happen sometimes. In D.C., we got a call: drive-by. We got to the scene and found a black guy bleeding from the crotch. Yeah the guy said, he didn't know who but somebody went by and fired. The cop thought it sounded fishy. It was. The guy had been carrying a Glock in his wiastband and wanted to show it to someone. He pulled it out by the trigger, oops, and removed himself from the gene pool. "

This came from a Soldier of Fortune article (March 2000) detailing life as a police officer and the sh*t that they have to deal with. Although in this case it wasn't a problem for them.

What I don't get is how did the poor son of a b*tch talk after castrating himself?
 
" Funny things happen sometimes. In D.C., we got a call: drive-by. We got to the scene and found a black guy bleeding from the crotch. Yeah the guy said, he didn't know who but somebody went by and fired. The cop thought it sounded fishy. It was. The guy had been carrying a Glock in his wiastband and wanted to show it to someone. He pulled it out by the trigger, oops, and removed himself from the gene pool. "
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There are a lot of dumb people that I think should not be carrying a gun. The above statement is one of them.



How hard is it to fellow these three basic rules?

1. Handle all firearms as if they were loaded!

2. Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction!

3. Keep your finger out of the gun's trigger guard! Finger out of the tigger!!

How hard is it? I would like to know. Glock is a safe weapon.
 
Orlando5 I wouldn't worry to much about the black guy in that article. He probably was a gang member or drug dealer/user......
 
Glocks's "safe action"

Glocks are definitely no safe guns to use. The term "safe action" was invented by their commercial dept. and surprisingly proved very successful (as an excuse) because many law enforcement depts. simply do not have the time or the budget for proper fire arms training (like here in Belgium). Basically all Glocks remain single action guns with nothing whatsoever to prevent the gun from firing once the trigger is depressed.

Most shooters in Europe only consider guns safe if they have a double action lock with decocker (or manual safety), thus turning the light trigger pull of the single action into a "more safe" and harder trigger pull for the double action (like CZ75B, Walther P99, SIG P226 etc.).

My P99 also has the stupid so called "trigger safety" which I consider completely worthless but at least it doesn't impede the proper handling of the gun and I choose the gun for it's other qualities.

I would like to finish with a quote from Murphy that says it all :

BUILD A SYSTEM THAT EVEN A FOOL CAN USE AND ONLY FOOLS WILL USE IT !!
 
DougB wrote:
I also get a little tired of the endlessly repeated comment that "the only real safety is between your ears." I don't think anyone suggests that a mechanical device replaces safe gun handling. But MY brain tells me that if I can select a gun that is less prone to accidental discharges, maybe that's the smart thing to do (depending on my own needs, training, experience, etc.).

All handguns are a compromise between two opposing goals. We want them to:

1) Be very difficult to fire accidentally, but

2) Be very fast and easy to fire intentionally.
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Ok, but there is a difference between a accidental discharge (gun is screwed up) and a negligent discharge (shooter screwed up). Guns dont just go off without help. If they do, they are 1) broken or 2) of unsafe design. The Glock pistol will not just "go off". "Safe-action" is a marketing gimick, it's true; but the ARE safe. The firing pin/striker is blocked and not under tension untill the trigger is pulled.


E.T. posted this bit of enlightened wisdom:
Glocks are definitely no safe guns to use. The term "safe action" was invented by their commercial dept. and surprisingly proved very successful (as an excuse) because many law enforcement depts. simply do not have the time or the budget for proper fire arms training (like here in Belgium). Basically all Glocks remain single action guns with nothing whatsoever to prevent the gun from firing once the trigger is depressed.
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It is fairly evident that you have zero knowledge on the inner workings of the Glock pistol. Safe-action refers to exactly that...the action is safe. It WILL NOT go off unless you pull the trigger, period. "Basically all Glocks remain single action guns..." Glocks are not even cocked untill you pull the trigger, how in the hell can it be single action??? "...with nothing whatsoever to prevent the gun from firing once the trigger is depressed" Gee, here's me thinking that is what a gun is supposed to do. :rolleyes:
 
I'm afraid BB can't stand hearing other opinions than his. In my humble opinion a single action (striker fired) gun can only be cocked by racking the slide and not by pulling the trigger, as is the fact for all Glock pistols. Once released the striker can not be cocked with a double action trigger pull like the double action striker fired Walther P99 (better check and upgrade your basic knowledge on inner workings of various guns BB !).

You may explain me in time the exact technical motivation of the so called "safe action". As far as I know the "trigger safety" prevents the trigger shoe to pivot around its ax as long as there's no finger pulling the trigger rearwards and this is the fundamental issue : since when can guns fire as long as there's no pressure from the trigger finger on the trigger ? (forget the stories about cheap holsters).

P.S. : how much did you invest in Glock ?
 
I'm afraid BB can't stand hearing other opinions than his.
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The mechanics of the inner workings of the Glock pistol are facts, not opinions.
In my humble opinion a single action (striker fired) gun...
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Single action and striker fired are two totally unrelated things.
...can only be cocked by racking the slide and not by pulling the trigger, as is the fact for all Glock pistols.
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Racking the slide simply chambers a round and resets the trigger. The firing mechanism is blocked and under no load until the trigger is depressed, the act of depressing the trigger draws the striker back on it's spring (cocking). Hence, it is not a single-action trigger. The action in a Glock can not be considered single action, nor double action. Hence safe-action.
Once released the striker can not be cocked with a double action trigger pull like the double action striker fired Walther P99 (better check and upgrade your basic knowledge on inner workings of various guns BB !).
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What does a Walther have to do with it? I made no comment in regard to a P99, as I know nothing about them. I don't make statments about things I don't understand. I do understand Glock pistol design, which it is clear you do not. Safe-Action is made up of three seperate safeties, not just the trigger safety. The three safeties are-
1. Trigger Safety:
This is incorporated into the trigger in the form of a lever and in the untouched state it prevents the trigger from being moved rearward. If the weapon is dropped or if the trigger is subjected to an off center lateral pressure; the trigger will remain in the forward locked position. The trigger safety can only be released by pressure being applied directly to the lever on the trigger. This type of safety, in conjunction with the other two, offers a minimum fire ready time with a maximum level of safety for the user.
2. Firing pin safety:
In the secured position, the spring loaded firing pin safety plunger projects into the firing pin channel. This prevents the firing pin from moving forward, until the trigger is depressed.
3. Dropped gun Safety:
The firing pin pushes the trigger bar onto the safety ramp of the trigger mechanism housing under the power of the firing pinspring. This action places the left side extension of the trigger bar cruciform (the gun oriented with the muzzle down range) on the trigger mechanism housing ramp until the trigger is fully depressed. This safety prevents the trigger bar from releasing the firing pin without the trigger being depressed. If the trigger bar does not drop, the firing pin is not released.
So, in answer to your question "...and this is the fundamental issue : since when can guns fire as long as there's no pressure from the trigger finger on the trigger?" I would say in the case of a Glock, it can't. Fire that is. There MUST be pressure on the trigger, it CAN"T fire if there isn't deliberate, centered, rearward pressure on the trigger.

PS-The only money I've invested in Glock is what I've spent on the ones I own. I realize there are limitations to the design, and improvments can be made. I am not a "Glockhead", as I do realize that they are far from "Perfection". What I can't stand is when people who have no knowledge of a subject making false and uninformed statements on that subject. If you can't handle the responsibility of owning a Glock, great, don't buy one. But I would seriously wonder about the competence of an individual that couldn't handle said responsibility as it pertains to any other firearm out there.
 
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once again into the breech!

Get it?

I have seen some interesting points mad since I last posted.
Here are few more points that seem to have fallen off my head.

Yes, the best safety is between my ears....

But, I do have to sleep and leave home and take showers etc. This means that I am not in control of all of my firearms at all times. If someone besides myself were to somehow come into possesion of one of my guns. I think the glock "safety" mechanism would be the most dangerous of all the safeties in my small collection.

BB.

My understanding is that glocks are always partially cocked after the slide has cycled and the trigger only completes the cocking proccess and then releases the sear. Isn't this how they manage to have a "double action" trigger pull of only five pounds? Can anyone reading this confirm this for me? I believe I have heard this from glock owners/experts before. I'm just making sure FACT's are FACT's -ddt
 
ddt4free:

I can only speak for myself. I have a gun safe and the only person that have the key to it is me. I am in total control of my collection. No one is allow to even touch the safe without my permission. Every gun in that safe is unloaded and is attach to the safe wall, making it impossible for someone to steal it without cutting the chain link. I do think that I have total control over my collection.

The only gun that is loaded at all time is my Glock 19 and is my carry weapon. I keep it by my side at all time.
 
I have followed above discussions with great interests.

However I have to stick to my opinion (yes, opinion) that Glocks basically are SA guns because although the striker type firing pin is indeed partially cocked after the slide returns into battery, there is no possibility to fire the same round again after a misfire by simply pulling the trigger again i.e. the cocking work of the trigger alone is not sufficient to recock the striker and subsequently release it (= DA); thus giving the gun the handling characteristics of a SA gun.

The trigger pressure of the glock is somewhere between a DA and SA pull but considering the fact that a safe DA cocking work needs about 500 Nmm at least (against 100 Nmm for SA cocking work) and Glock's trigger work is less then 500 Nmm, I have my doubts about the safety aspects.

Also BB's vivid explanation of the Glock's trigger safety is questionable : Any object - be it a trigger finger or something else - hooked onto the trigger and pulling rearward will cause the gun to fire (if cocked and loaded). The argument that it has to be considered a drop safety makes no sense because nowadays guns have trigger parts made of such a light materials that you need to launch the pistol with a rocket against a concrete wall in order to create forces of inertia sufficient to provoke an accidental discharge.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Glock pistols. In the past I fired Glock 17 and 19 and found them not bad at all. Also my P99 is not perfect.

Nowadays gun manufacturers seem to feel the need to follow the latest fashion by incorporating a stupid Glock alike trigger safety (Walther, Steyr) for commercial reasons only.

Although BB gave us a nice explanation that safe-action should be understood as the combination of three separate safeties (my Walther P99 has exactly the same combination of safeties with an additional decocking device) the term "Safe Action" is misleading because it gives a false sense of safety and guess who's already payed for this misunderstanding (right, Glock hasn't while some shooters payed with their life).

I apologize if people were hurt by my comments but this never was my intention. I only hope that shooters and manufacturers will look at the Safe Action from a different point if view. We live in a free world and I hope we will keep our freedom to choose whichever guns that suits our personal needs and interests the best.

;)
 
Well done, BB.

The safety lever on the trigger simply prevents the striker from moving forward from it's partially cocked position if the gun is dropped, slammed on a hard surface, or otherwise abused. IIRC, the 1911 system is suspect in this regard, though I may be mistaken.

If you want to rely on a manual safety, such as a 1911, or a decocker, such as a Sig, that is fine. They are both good systems in trained hands. If you don't want to spend the time training with a Glock, don't buy one.
 
This post is about as useless as 95% of the other content of this thread, but...

The BATF lists Glocks as Double Action, FWIW. Who cares? Probably nobody. While not a "traditional" DA, they definitely fall closer to DA than SA in that the trigger pull "cocks" the striker and releases it.

Someone has already posted elsewhere the correct response to the "Glocks should have safeties" arguement.

No amount of engineering will foolproof a fool from himself!!

That just about covers it, I think...

R6
 
Concept? Here's your concept........

A reasonably-priced, rust-impervious, reliable semi-auto defense mechanism capable of rapid depolyment in the hands of a trained user. A well-made pistol exhibiting a high level of consistency from pistol to pistol with no need for aftermarket alterations to be effective in it's intended role.
 
E.T Thanks for clearing up BB's FACT's.

When it comes to firearms a little hyperboli can be dangerous. I have found a beautiful animated graphic on the kahr site that show's how this type of "glock" action in action. It clears up alot. The firing pin is clearly under some pressure when the gun at rest and "SAFE". I think some of the contributors to this thread would gain alot of understanding from looking at it. later -ddt
 
I'm afraid that Glocks are accidents waiting to happen. Whether it is an AD or a Ka-boom you are going to be very unhappy when it happens,
 
Unclear on the Concept

Your right on the money E.T. I agree with you 100 per cent.
Also did you happen to read the lastest issue of Gun Week in regards to the Glock unsafe action. More accidental discharges by the elite royal guards of Britan, the unit that guards the Queen, using (you guessed it) the unsafe Glocks. One Glock even went of twice in a row and another once.. Mechanical defect or human error? Matters not , either way it proves that in the human hand the Glock has time and time again proven to be a very unsafe weapon. W.R.
 
What do you expect from the brits? Gun experts? Hell I'm surprise they allow guns in the UK. The queen needs to get some new guards that can read and understand the three simple rules I posted on this thread. "Elite royal guards", I am surpise that they know what a gun look like. What a joke.
 
I was wondering who those little girls were at the range who squeeled and wet their panties when I loaded up my Glock last weekend, now I know;)
 
A simple solution

There is a simple solution to all these needless injuries and deaths. And to make this even crazier Glock has the ability to remedy it because they themselves furnish the Glock to other countries like Australia with a manuel safety.
Now think a minute before everyone starts yelling and screeming. Suppose that you purchased a glock with a manuel safety. If you did not want to use it and were naive enough to think that you are a superman who never makes a mistake because you never become physically tired or mentally exhausted or are never distracted not even in a minor imergency then you could just not ever use the manuel safety and guess what, the pistol will function just as it did before the safety was ever added. In other words you grab it and pull the trigger and shoot it. NOW ON THE OTHER HAND, if you want to play it sensible and safe you have the choice of putting the safety on and simply flipping it off when you intend to fire it. IN OTHER WORDS BOTH TYPES OF POEPLE HAVE THE OPTION OF USING IT OR NOT USING IT BECAUSE THE SAFETY WOULD IN NO WAY CHANGE HOW THE PISTOL WAS ORGINIALLY DESIGNED TO WORK.
I think that anyone who would not agree to this compromise really cares not about other peoples safety. Not all people are alike and some may find the safety really may someday indeed save their lives or the lives of someone close to them. Think about it awhile before you go beserk after reading this. W.R.
 
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