Unarmed Man Attempts Robbery of Open Carry Proponent

I just don't walk around with big money sticking out of my back pocket and at least here in Philly I see carrying a $500 gun (with an even higher street value) as an attractant rather than deterrent.


Say some kid decides to throw a brick at the back of my head: If he hits, free gun for him. If he misses, he gets to run away. It's not like I can legally engage or feasibly detain him after he turns tail.
 
According to the FBI UCRs, around 10 percent of law enforcement officers who are feloniously killed on the job, are killed with their own weapons.

Not all people who open carry are law enforcement officers. But nearly all law enforcement officers open carry. And they

  • use retention holsters, and
  • have training in how to retain the gun.

Re the Serpa, why choose a stupidly bad design when there are so many other non-stupid ones out there? It's not like Serpa is the only possible retention design.

pax
 
SERPA: flawed design?....

I disagree with part of the last forum post.
The Blackhawk SERPA holster design is not stupid or flawed, IMO.
As I stated, it's sturdy, secure & the polymer material is easy to care for.
It can also be converted to fit different ways or modes quickly(a leather or synthetic holster may not).
I could see & have seen online video clips of how a Blackhawk SERPA could break or be closed shut with dirt or snow.
As I wrote, if you are not in a desert, rolling around or want a fast, safe concealment/carry holster for a metro area, the SERPA CQC is worth checking.
Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb.

Clyde
 
Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb
Click to expand...

Neither would I -- since those firms chose to go with a retention design that was not a Serpa.

pax
 
pax said:
Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned....
Click to expand...
And to parallel what pax said, Glenn said this here:
Glenn E said:
...I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.

It does go against other literature....
Click to expand...
 
Serpa

I've never had any issues with my SERPA. Granted it's for a 1911, so I have the thumb safety too, but I honestly can't see how it would be any easier to have an AD with it than any other holster.
For me, when I grab the gun, and position my finger out along the line of the frame - where I'd put it if there was no holster - it hits the release. When I draw my finger is left - where it started - on the frame above the trigger guard.
Clearly, people have shot themselves using the holster, but I'd guess that has more to do with trying to draw quickly out of an unfamiliar holster than it does with some inherent design flaw.
As far as it getting ripped off easily, has anyone actually tried it or is that just another internet rumor? Maybe mine is different, but the holster attaches to the belt loops with 4 fairly beefy screws. Tightened properly, with a drop of locktite, I don't see them coming out very easily.
 
SERPA duty holster, gun grabs...

If "Pax" is speaking of the SERPA duty holster, I have seen a video clip of how it can be torn completely off a duty belt BUT...
If you watch the clip, it talks the grabber a considerable amount of force to tear the polymer holster off. A armed security or sworn LE could or should be able to deter or defend against the threat. The officer or armed citizen could also deploy a 2nd gun, OC spray or Taser/EDW too. If you aimlessly stand by & let a violent thug grab your firearm you have more problems then the brand you carry.

I'd add that the Safariland SFS or ALS may be a better pick if you feel the weather conditions or work environment(jail, prison, mental health center, court, etc) may lend itself to fights or outbursts/gun snatches.

Clyde
PS: I agree to that a gun owner or sworn LE officer can TRAIN to carry & use the SERPA safely. As the YouTube.com clip of "Tex" shows, it's not the SERPA holster but Tex's improper method that caused a mishap. Tex(the victim) clearly says that in the video. ;)
 
As far as the first video goes, it looks like maybe he's using the one built for a light without a light on the gun? Mine's screwed together, and fits a lot closer to the gun. It's also made out of a very stiff material, so I couldn't come close to twisting it apart like that. I do have the "sportster" model, so maybe that's the difference.

As far as the release goes - where they were using the same exact setup I have - I guess I've finally found an advantage to stubby fingers:cool:. My fingers are short enough that they hit the release as intended, so the curling is a non issue for me.

But, it does see that there are definite issues with the holster. I'd probably think about picking something else up if it was the rig that I used on a daily basis.
 
Last edited:
Remember the quote from Glenn in post 45 -- the reference to human factors. That's a real issue with the Sherpa. Why?

Human factor engineering is about designing things in a way that considers human capabilities and limitations to reduce the possibilities for operational errors, especially under stress, and to reduce training requirements. The Sherpa doesn't seem to do that well.

While it is possible to train to use the Sherpa properly and safely, its design makes it especially easy to make a particular, natural and predictable operational error that is dangerous to the user. If you are really good at using it correctly, that will be fine. But it is designed and operated in a way that makes it especially easy to make a particular mistake that can get you hurt.
 
dayman,

About that first video: I can't remember if I read it in his comments or heard it on the video, but he commented that it was a hot day -- and that he couldn't do the same thing on a very cold day.

pax
 
have training in how to retain the gun.
Click to expand...
LEO in Ohio must just be way behind the curve. I trained with an OPOTA grad a few weeks ago for his requalify and he didn't know about jamming the strongside holster up into his hip so it was impossible to draw the gun. If they aren't teaching that in the academy i don't think they are teaching anything about retention.
 
PBS Frontline; Philadelphia PA police dept, Safariland holster...

A few years ago, I watched a update of a PBS Frontline doc about the police academy class of the Philadelphia PA police department(2001).
In a clip of the cadets from 2001, a young female couldn't re-holster her duty Glock pistol in a Safariland retention holster. :(
The PBS special noted how the Philadelphia PD had a 97% graduate rate compared to 75-80% for most state police training academies.

To train & prepare with the proper gear is important. Some understand that point more than others.
 
A good retention holster and a backup gun on the weakside.
Click to expand...

I don't see this as completely necessary. I always carry a knife on my weak side. I have had retention training, and knife training as well.

I have had someone go for my gun once, and it was out on my farm. We had bought two horses from a guy and he had come over to check up on them. I admit, when I am out there I let my guard down at times, and I did on the day that he was there. He tried to grab my gun (later he said "just to look at it") and I responded and kept my gun. He did not know how to operate the SERPA so it was a help as well.

He was escorted off of our property, and has not been invited back.
 
I personally don't believe in open carry as a deterrent. I don't think any criminal around is going to be deterred by knowing a weapon is present. If somebody is mentally screwed up enough to make a target of a person without knowing if they're armed or not, announcing to them that you are only gives them an upper hand.

But open carry shouldn't be used as a deterrent in the first place. It is a statement to the public that carrying a firearm isn't a crime. Too many people don't have the slightest clue what is legal when it comes to firearms and assume the only people carrying are cops and criminals. Open carry should be about peacefully expressing your stance on gun rights, not about deterring criminals.

I also don't like the types who open carry with a camera with them hoping they'll get stopped by an officer so they can video tape said officer and put the video online. You don't need to immortalize some poor officer on the internet to make a point and let him forever be seen as the villain. But I suppose that's an issue for another time.
 
Really? Maybe he isn't 21 and can't CC
Click to expand...
Since he's an EMU student, I'd say that's a very good bet.

I CC most of the time and OC a portion of the time, especially at home and around the house. I've found it keeps a lot of crime from my neighborhood when several of us in the area are OC'ing. The neighborhood watch crime stats have proven it out time after time here. We are "the crazies" in my liaison officer's words, which he borrowed from street punks.:D

Doubtful I'll change my habits.
 
I personally don't believe in open carry as a deterrent. I don't think any criminal around is going to be deterred by knowing a weapon is present. If somebody is mentally screwed up enough to make a target of a person without knowing if they're armed or not, announcing to them that you are only gives them an upper hand.
Click to expand...
I hear Brinks is going to have their guards start CCWing for this reason... I mean really, are you going to stand behind that statement or are you going to rethink it?
Open carry has been an accepted deterrent since the carry item was a club.

In my previous post I said hip where it is actually more the ribs. IDK the anatomy, but you pull up on the bottom of the holster and angle it into your body.
 
OC vs concealed, uniforms....

Doing armed security details in uniform and working armed in a few EP(executive protection) posts, I can honestly say having a OC sidearm can deter some criminals.
In the mid 2000s, I worked as a security officer for a hotel property in a high crime, high incident rate area. I wore my Ruger GPNY .38spl on duty. Several times I saw a few vehicles repeatedly "case" the hotel property, see me, then drive off.
One important point I'd make about armed/uniform carry is to wear a duty uniform that clearly identifys you front & back. This can prevent mishaps or misunderstandings. Being clearly identified can help protect you. Using the reflective type badges & patches avoid problems in low light.
It's important to remember that some LE officers may not know you have a concealed license or can carry OC. I've talked to a few patrol officers in my area who had little or no knowledge of the regulations/policy of the state's Div of Licensing. For the record, the state where I live had in-service training for LE but cut the program to save $$$. :(

Clyde
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top