UK crime statistics revealed as a "sham"

[rickyrick]

And there in lies the problem, the media won't compare US places with differing gun laws, they wanna focus on other countries.

 

[Jim Watson]

The dirty little fact is that the US has a lot of violent minorities.
If you normalize for race and ethnicity, the USA has about the same homicide rate as the rest of the industrialized world.

 

[Darren007]

This is a neat video discussing this very topic (at least to my understanding of what is being said here). He compares the stats on violent crime as put out by the FBI and the Home Office in the U.K. According to those numbers, the U.K. has a lower gun murder rate, but an overall higher violent crime rate than the U.S....but he also talks about why that is, why the media and politicians never talk about it and so forth. Its worth a watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0&list=FLQVtIGm69YEs3KXl_o1iYNg&index=4

 

[Pond James Pond]

This is a neat video discussing this very topic (at least to my understanding of what is being said here). He compares the stats on violent crime as put out by the FBI and the Home Office in the U.K. According to those numbers, the U.K. has a lower gun murder rate, but an overall higher violent crime rate than the U.S....but he also talks about why that is, why the media and politicians never talk about it and so forth. Its worth a watch!

I refer you back to my post #35.
True or not, what does it really bring to the table?

 

[mack59]

In the last twenty years as right to carry laws have become more and more the law of the land the murder rate in the US has dropped by almost half. Violent crime has also seen similar dramatic decreases. Fatal firearm accidents have decreased by over half.

This while the number of firearm owners, number of concealed carry license holders, number of firearms have according to Gallup increased.

England has historically had lower murder rates this century even before firearm laws were passed.

Studies of firearm laws in this country have shown no significant measurable impact on crime rates.

Factors to do with culture, homogeneity of populations, education, economic opportunity, reporting and police practices and other such factors influence crime rates significantly much more so than firearm laws.

So these rough rate and number comparisons between murder crime rates are particularly useless unless one is a British talk show host on CNN or someone looking to make more of a meaningless comparison than is demonstrably there.

 

[Pond James Pond]

And there in lies the problem, the media won't compare US places with differing gun laws, they wanna focus on other countries.

This seems like a golden opportunity to me.

As it stands the different networks have their own political bias anyway, so whatever they show will be to align with their viewers. Noone buys a newspaper that prints stuff that goes against their own views or opinions of the world order. People read newspapers to get the news, bu presented in a way that will ring true with their philosophies.

Same with CNN broadcasting to viewers who just want to hear their views confirmed.

I hate to say it, but same with TFL: So many people have been posting the same kind of things: how the antis are all wrong, how the antis are all emotional, how the antis are all ignoring the 2nd A' etc.

All that is preaching to the converted. Yes, members feel better and that they are not alone in their views, but their cause is advanced very little.

So.
Take the statistics from the States the media won't compare, take the real life stories of home owners, shop owners, people in the street for whom a fire arm has allowed them to defend their homes or themselves, be it a home invasion, an attempted mugging, a would-be mass-shooter or a hurricane aftermath.
Put them to film, post it, share it.
If that ex-soldier can write a letter and go viral, then why can't dozens of others. Don't wait for the lobby organisations to do it for you: it will look like and be propaganda. My guess is the people are sick of that, especially after such an in-your-face presidential election.

They want to hear from people, not spokespeople.

Keep it real, accurate, honest, and balanced (a clearly biased arguement is not more use than Piers Morgans rantings). Avoid any sensationalisation and everyday, ordinary people will see that gun ownership can allow for everyday, ordinary people, like them, to come out safe from extra-ordinary situations.

 

[Darren007]

I refer you back to my post #35.
True or not, what does it really bring to the table?

If anything it should stop the disingenuous country comparisons that folks like to make when talking about crime in the U.S. For example, on another forum, a member who was from the U.K. claimed that he never felt scared or feared walking down the street in London at anytime day or night. But when he lived in the U.S. (specifically Seattle, Washington), he made it a point to avoid leaving the house after sundown unless absolutely necessary. The reason? America is more violent or so he claimed. But why does he think that when statistically hes more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the U.K. than in the U.S.?

We do have a higher gun murder rate, but (and I've pointed this out to people before) part of the reason is that other countries don't have near the gang and drug problem that we have and those two things account for the majority of gun homocides in the U.S. As was pointed out in the video, we need to look at the source of the trouble and the reasons if we are truly concerned about protecting people. Until we do that, imo, talking about statistics in order to, for example, ban guns is just BS talking points in order to illicit an emotional reaction from people in order to support an agenda; not solve or lessen crime.

 

[Rainbow Demon]

Pond says

Jamaica allows people to own guns.
Do you really want to see if they have a low murder rate?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080510...-0500_35669_OBS_LEGAL_GUN_SUPPLIES_DRY_UP.asp

According to the source, just under 700 firearm licences are approved each year and nearly half of those are issued to private security guard companies.



All applicants for licensed firearms are checked out by the police and once they meet a set of criteria, are given a 90-day permit by the divisional police superintendent. The applicant is given a firearm licence booklet on production of a receipt from a licensed firearm dealer indicating that he/she has paid for a certain model and calibre gun and ammunition. The booklet is then taken back to the dealer to collect the firearm and the holder must return to the police with the gun for inspection.
Each licence costs $1,000 and expires on March 31 every year.

If the firearm is not purchased within the 90-day period, the holder will have to submit a new application which may or may not be approved by the police.
But since February this year, hundreds of persons who have received firearm licences have been waiting to make a purchase.

One man who received his permit last month expressed his concern to the Sunday Observer that he could lose it unless he is able to acquire a gun by the end of December.
"The police allow you, by law, just three months to acquire the gun. If you fail within that period, the permit is automatically cancelled. That will force me to start the long process of applying for a next permit all over again," he said, unable to disguise his frustration.
He said he had tried the three licensed gun dealers on the island, but none of them had any firearms in stock.

The common man, the ones most vulnerable to criminal assaults simply can not afford the licensing fees to obtain a firearm.
The stated intent of the firearms laws in Jamaica is to eliminate firearms from the society. They intend to regulate gun ownership out of existence.

from Wiki

Prime Minister Michael Manley expressed his determination to take stronger action against firearms, predicting that "It will be a long war. No country can win a war against crime overnight, but we shall win. By the time we have finished with them, Jamaican gunmen will be sorry they ever heard of a thing called a gun."[2] In order to win this war, Manley believed it necessary to disarm the whole public: "There is no place in this society for the gun, now or ever."[3]

And what effect have these draconian gun laws had on availability of weapons to the criminal and political gangsters?

National Concerns

In spite of persistent efforts by Jamaica’s law enforcement officials, the smuggling of arms into the country, often by ingenious methods, continues to be of serious concern. The trade in illicit weapons is linked to the illicit drug trade, as guns are often exchanged for drugs and also used by “gang members” to reinforce and protect their turf and contraband from their rivals.

The rise in violent crimes has subsequently led to the increase in private firearm permit holders and the mushrooming of private security firms. As of December 2004, there were approximately 50,000 licensed firearm holders in the country.

 

[Pond James Pond]

The common man, the ones most vulnerable to criminal assaults simply can not afford the licensing fees to obtain a firearm.
The stated intent of the firearms laws in Jamaica is to eliminate firearms from the society. They intend to regulate gun ownership out of existence.

I don't know what the common man earns, but 65,000 firearms is no small number, nor is 700 licences a year for a relatively small island. Some one is buying them. Fact remains that Jamaica has not outlawed guns.

Still: kinda ignoring all the other figures I posted there aren't you?

Care to comment on the almost factor-of-5 difference in murders between the US and UK Virgin Islands, seeing as you offered the latter up as a paradigm of your arguement?

What about the similar (3 and a bit times) ratio of UK to US figures?

What about the fact that Estonia, fastest growing EU economy in 2006 has a higher rate than both UK and US and has guns for SD?

 

[Rainbow Demon]

The US Virgin Islands will not recognize any firearms license issued by any US state. LEO and retired LEO are allowed to possess guns when they visit the islands, all others will have their firearms confiscated.

I haven't tracked down specifics on ownership by those native to the islands.

 

[hogdogs]

I was only reading this thread for another issue because I know these threads are filled with 97.34 percent made up statistics...

You cannot compare gun crime of a nation with strict gun possession laws to a nation's gun crime rates where gun ownership is not only allowed but encouraged by the framing documents...

I bet hammer assaults are higher in a nation where hammers are common compared to a nation that uses only air nailers...

Not to mention the back and forth discussions tend to look like an assault on deceased equine using nothing but sticks and clubs...

If any other mods feels i am off base... feel free to re-open this...

Brent