UK crime statistics revealed as a "sham"

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Sorry Rainbow, I might just be being thick but I don't get the point you are making with that last one, could you explain?

Also, the Scots and the Irish are not "a problem for the UK." The Scots are of the UK, as are many people who live in Ireland.
 
How well did strict gun laws work in keeping automatic weapons out of the hands of the IRA?
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What does that have to do with anything?!
If that is supposed to be an arguement against gun control, then the US should legalise concaine and heroine because laws against that are not doing much.

Why is the murder rate in the British Virgin Islands four times as high as in the USA?
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Sorry.... let me get this straight.
Are you taking an off-shore territory with a population of 23,000, to the mainland UK's 59 million, as a basis for your arguement?

That is like me taking statistics for the Aleutians on a given subject and judging the whole US by them...
:rolleyes:

Really. Be honest. What are you hoping to prove by trying to discredit UK stats one way or another?

I'd like to hear that in plain language, because I am struggling to see what UK crime rates have got to do with America.
 
Sorry.... let me get this straight.
Are you taking an off-shore territory with a population of 23,000, to the mainland UK's 59 million, as a basis for your arguement?
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Nope, I'm pointing out that lack of the right to carry a firearm for self defense most certainly leads to increased possibility of being murdered, if the motivations are there.
The Virgin Islands , though a tropical paradise are one of the transhipment points for drugs being smuggled into the USA.
The appetite for drugs and drug money has resulted in the increased violence in the British Virgin islands, not availability of firearms.
 
Rainbow - nobody here is arguing that fewer guns means less crime. It is you who is making the argument that changes in UK crime rates can be attributed to changes in gun laws, an argument that does not make sense when you look deeper into it than "guns banned '97, few years later crime is rising". It is more complicated than that.
 
Nope, I'm pointing out that lack of the right to carry a firearm for self defense most certainly leads to increased possibility of being murdered, if the motivations are there.
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Hi do you explain the fact their are more murders in America were more are allowed to carry firearms than most other other countries. ? Compared with the most of Europe and the uk for example.
 
JamesPond,

The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down our throats actually.
 
Hi do you explain the fact their are more murders in America were more are allowed to carry firearms than most other other countries. ? Compared with the most of Europe and the uk for example.
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Ah, but concealed carry isn't allowed in many us states and cities, but the ones that do allow it have significantly lower violent crimes.
 
Correlation does not always equal causation, which seems to escape some, but when the causation becomes glaringly obvious it should not be ignored.

When legal gun ownership and increased used of CCW became the norm rather than the exception in the US violent crime on the whole took a nose dive.
In those cities where private ownership and carry are prohibited or severely restricted violent crime has increased.

The experiment has been repeated often enough for a conclusion to be drawn.

PS
England's population in 2011 was found to be 53 million.[264] It is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, with 383 people resident per square kilometre in mid-2003,[265] with a particular concentration in London and the south-east.[266] The 2011 census put Scotland's population at 5.3 million,[267] Wales at 3.06 million and Northern Ireland at 1.81 million.
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If those figures are correct Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland together have fewer residents than New York City. England has fewer residents than California.

I had noticed some crime statistics for the UK mention only crimes in England and Wales, crimes in Ireland and Scotland being totally ignored or simply not reported.
 
rickyrick - not by the UK members on this board it isn't, and the fact that the other side are making those arguments doesn't mean the pro-2A side should too, because they are equally weak, unconvincing and ill-informed.
 
Rainbow - alternative explanations for this correlation have been offered, you have chosen to ignore them.

In the UK legal guns have always been a rural thing, gun crime is an urban thing. Done by different populations, moving in different worlds.

There may well be a causal link in the USA - but there is no real evidence for one in Britain, because we are talking about a different country with a different people. There is nothing to be gained by comparing the two.
 
I'm not arguing any side actually, I don't have facts on crime in the UK or anywhere else. I'm just answering the question as to why some are trying to disprove the figures.

I understand why some would want to discuss this, as its a big reason some have given to disarm citizens
 
rickyrick - I get that too, but it seems that every time this comes up, immediately after shouting at the anti's for their spurious links and unsupportable conclusions, people start doing the same thing themselves. Trying so hard to prove that the UK is really dangerous and over run with knife wielding thugs, and that this is because we have strict gun laws . . . when it this bears no resemblance to reality.
 
Nope, I'm pointing out that lack of the right to carry a firearm for self defense most certainly leads to increased possibility of being murdered, if the motivations are there.
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That is ludicrously simplistic.

Jamaica allows people to own guns.
Do you really want to see if they have a low murder rate?

Try this one on for size and see if it fits your formula:

I've just looked at United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime data for murders between 95 and 2011.

I picked a year that had data for several particular countries for direct comparison. The year is 2006. It was the latest with data for all.

In that year the British Virgin Islands got 8.6 murders per 100000, the US Virgin Islands got 39.2.

The USA got 4.8, Estonia (where I live and where SD firearms are permitted) got 6.8 and UK got 1.5.

Jamaica had 49.7.

Do you really want to keep beating this drum?
BTW, I've still not seen an answer to my earlier question.
 
JamesPond,

The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down our throats actually.
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So I've gathered but most of us realise, if we stop and think about, that UK crime figures have nothing to do with US crime.

So rather than trying to pick at those figures, you (collectively) should be telling those spouting the stats that you fail to see how they are relevant.
I certainly don't.

Show them there stats are pointless, and they'll have to resort to US stats which, surely, is more representative and useful.

However, playing their game of giving these stats credence in this debate by trying to counter them does you no favours...
 
The UK gun ban and orher countries is being held up as a shining example of why we need to give up our rifles. More like being crammed down
our throats actually.
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What do you mean by uk gun ban. ?

The media will make up what ever they want to push their view. Pro gun or anti gun.
 
The USA does not have universal gun laws, nor do they have universal self defense laws. So the rate for the entirety of the US is not even accurate. Some places your only option is to cower and take whatever the criminal decides to do. Other places have stand and fight laws and castle doctrines.

More and more places are, in fact, going to concealed carry licenses and castle doctrines ect...why is that?
 
The trouble with looking at the UKs statistics is that since the ban on pistols there has been increasing amounts of gun violence.

Is this due to the fact there are no privately owned handguns?
No, I doubt it.

Every day in London the Police are finding weapons used in crrimes that no-one can legally own (pistols, ak47s etc).
So what does that show you,
It means that no matter what restrictions you have in place, criminals are still going to do what they want when they want, if they were people who upheld the law they wouldn't be called criminals would they.

The reason the UK has such little gun crime is that it is a completely different society and culture. Firearms are a huge part of English traditions and what makes the UK unique, they just have a different firearm culture than the USA.
 
James and Manta,

Even when a respectable person counters the media they instantly become a crack pot. But what y'all are saying is good.
 
Some places your only option is to cower and take whatever the criminal decides to do. Other places have stand and fight laws and castle doctrines.
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The perfect basis for a realistic comparison of whether or not gun controls work.
Pick similar cities or counties for size, population and income and compare....

And all from within the borders of the most implicated country in this debate: the US.
 
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