UCLA Student Tased: Justifiable?

[Sarge]

I probably won't last long on this forum, but ...

I'm going to have to brace a senior member.

invssgt- you stated

"You can also bet that if these cops were working for me, they would be canned or reassigned to parking control ASAP."

My current Chief makes statements like that. He's about ready to retire for medical reasons. He too, makes decisions about something that he doesn't yet have all of the facts about. I'll let you know when he's leaving. I'll have such a warm feeling in my heart knowing we're getting another one that makes snap decisions.

Hell, I ain't nobody. You can "brace" me all you want. I think you'll lose this one, though.

Us old bastards are a nuisance to you young pups who know everything. Problem is, most of us old cops have seen the lawsuits, and had to go back to places where prior officer misconduct had made handling simple disturbance calls like walking into a war zone. And yes, we did our time as patrolmen, sweated the middle-man spot as sergeants, and sweated the liability issues in mid level management. Some of us have actually written firearms and use of force policies, secure in the knowledge that a mistake would either cost an officer his life due to hesitation- or cost the rest of us due to 'improper training' or 'negligent retention'. Stick around and you'll get your turn.

All the facts? Either you agree with the officers' actions on the video, or you do not. I do not, for reasons already stated. If you agree with what they did, just say so.

It'll play out in the courts, for all to see. Time will settle this issue.

 

[Sarge]

Account from eyewitness UCLA student Mher (last name withheld):

The first thing I noticed was the student shout “don’t touch me” the very first time when he was still as his desk (a little earlier than when the camera began to roll I believe. I was about 30 feet away from him.) I hadn’t noticed the policemen come in. I looked over and I saw the student standing up, his hands were in the air in a very “get your hands off me” manner. One of the police officers did in fact have his hands on him and was grabbing one of his right arms, or maybe more but I didn’t pay too much attention to it right away (I was doing work on the computer). I returned to typing as it seemed that he was just going to escorted out. I thought the incident was over then and went back to my paper. A very short time later (maybe I’d estimate 30 secondsish) I heard him again, but this time farther down by the exit of the computer lab, shouting “don’t touch me” and soon after the shock.

I was stunned and I think most other people were stunned as well. One girl started trotting over from where I was and said “you can’t do that”. I got up soon after and walked over. I didn’t see what happened before the first shock, but I soon approached and saw him held on the ground by the officers and in the midst of being cuffed. I don’t know if he had been struggling up to this point, but when I got there he was pretty much subdued and the officers were doing the struggling (turning him over to finish cuffing him, manhandling him pretty much). He yelled a few things during this time and you can hear it all on the video. Then the officers were dragging him up from his arms and demanding that he stand up. He looked really messed up at this point, as if he had just ran a race or something. His face was kind of pinkish (probably from the shock and all the shouting) and his body was slumped. I started saying to him “get up dude, just get up”, and I think some other people may have been encouraging him. He wasn’t making a move and just about then they shocked him again.

At this point a couple of other students and I started shouting back at the cops. I hadn’t seen what led to the first shock, but I did see the time in between and the second shock was completely unjustifiable. He was definitely not being violent, he wasn’t moving, at all. A few of us were shouting as they led him down the stairway and shocked him right there going down and he fell pretty hard on the tiles of the steps (I think you can see him flying up on the video). They dragged him down to the entrance foyer and there I, and a couple other students became more vocal. The CSOs were trying to block us off at this point, but they were porous and few. Several students had been demanding badge numbers, but the 2 officers had obviously not responded up to that point, and never did. (The student was shocked AT LEAST two more times before he was finally dragged out of the building.)

In the foyer, there were a few other officers. One of them came to approach us. One other student and I started speaking with this officer, saying mostly 1) this student is being assaulted by these officers and you have to stop this and 2) we want the names and badge numbers of all the officers there. He told us that we would get them and that we needed to calm down. The student was pretty much motionless at this point except for the few times he was being tased. We continued complaining as the student was being dragged out, but he was badly obscured at this point by several officers and security guards. Then another officer approached me directly and told me to back up, to which I replied with some witty remark about the limits of his authority in the situation. He told me again to back up, and I said something like “I just want your badge numbers” and he told me again to back up right now and that if I didn’t move back I would be tased too. I didn’t move and looked at him directly, at which point he raised his taser gun and pointed it at me (I saw the red light glow right in the center of it) and said “try me”. I turned around and lifted my hands.

I walked around and approached the other officer I had talked to earlier. I again asked for badge numbers. One of the officers (can’t clearly remember which one or what number it was) responded with a single three digit number (which I am assuming was his own) and I saw the officer who had threatened me earlier walking out. I was held up for a couple seconds when the badge numbers of the two assaulting officers were given then walked out to follow the officer who had left. He was down below the stairs where there were about 5 police cars parked all facing the library. I trotted down and he immediately started approaching me. I said “I want your badge number”. He continued approaching me and pointed his taser gun at me again and told me to go back inside.

I walked back inside and started talking to people. I kept asking if anyone got all their badge numbers. One student assured me that he had gotten them. The whole place was buzzing at this point. People were talking, discussing, encouraging each other about doing things about it (which including calling news sources, writing to the chancellor, the regents, and the police department, etc.) It was here as I was talking to people that I first discovered that the initial violation had been that he didn’t show identification. I persistently asked everyone I talked to if the officers had ever stated that they were arresting the student or if rights had been read. I even spoke to the student who was sitting near him when the officers first approached. Everyone of the students I spoke to said that they had heard no mentions of arrest or Miranda rights. We pieced the story together, bits and pieces, there among us all.

I went back and packed all my stuff and went for a coffee at the vending machines and made a call out to someone I knew from the daily bruin. When I returned another student was being kicked out of the library for an unrelated event by the two officers I had spoken to. I recognized the student and greeted him. They were very rude to both of us and continued to be as they got his information and eventually left. I went back in and finished what work I had to do and eventually went home.

This, and more, at http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/#more-246

 

[Pucker]

So by this account he was tazed (or shocked or whatever you wish to call it) at least 4 times, 3 of which were while he was cuffed and/or on the ground.

Yowza. Yowza. Yowza.

 

[mvpel]

He wasn’t making a move and just about then they shocked him again.

Okay, so we have an eyewitness attesting that the officers were using the Taser to overcome passive resistence, not active resistence. This is a violation of the Miami Police Department's Taser policy, and I suspect that it's a violation of the LAPD Taser policy as well.

So there you have it - assuming of course this eyewitness' account is borne out.

 

[kirin]

Again, for kirin. (I don't have the quote feature, so I copied your post and italized your statements.)

I dont have reply either. What i do is apply the "quote" button and then cut and paste the text. just a little tip.

 

[kirin]

You better! If the officer can articulate why he/she felt it necessary to conduct a pat-down, your refusing will likely get you tased. You need a better understanding of the law before you make statements like that.

Im not a lawyer. I am basing this entirely on an ACLU video to citizens that instructs them about the laws provided to US Citizens under the US Constitution.

Here is the 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

But, you can watch a police officer perform this scenario and then an ACLU attorney analyze the video and instruct citizens on their rights and what they should say and do when officers abuse their authority by performing searches without consent here The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters or by visiting www.FlexYourRights.org

In that video you will see a boy standing at a bus stop and police questioning what he is up too and then trying to perform a patdown.

 

[kirin]

Here is more information regarding a street stop scenario (ie. your walking and a police officer stops and wants to search you).

4) Just Say "No" to Warrantless Searches
Warning: If a police officer asks your permission to search, you are under no obligation to consent. The only reason he's asking you is because he doesn't have enough evidence to search without your consent. If you consent to a search request you give up one of the most important constitutional rights you have—your Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

A majority of avoidable police searches occur because citizens naively waive their Fourth Amendment rights by consenting to warrantless searches. As a general rule, if a person consents to a warrantless search, the search automatically becomes reasonable and therefore legal. Consequently, whatever an officer finds during such a search can be used to convict the person.

Don't expect a police officer to tell you about your right not to consent. Police officers are not required by law to inform you of your rights before asking you to consent to a search. In addition, police officers are trained to use their authority to get people to consent to a search, and most people are predisposed to comply with any request a police officer makes. For example, the average motorist stopped by a police officer who asks them, "Would you mind if I search your vehicle, please?" will probably consent to the officer's search without realizing that they have every right to deny the officer's request.

If, for any reason you don't want the officer digging through your belongings, you should refuse to consent by saying something like, "Officer, I know you want to do your job, but I do not consent to any searches of my private property." If the officer still proceeds to search you and finds illegal contraband, your attorney can argue that the contraband was discovered through an illegal search and hence should be thrown out of court.

You should never hesitate to assert your constitutional rights. Just say "no!" http://www.flexyourrights.org/street_stop_scenario

 

[kirin]

Again, you should learn a bit more about the law before you make statements like that. Learn the law better and you’ll be surprised at what steps an officer can take. We may not like the case law that allows officers to do certain things. But, denying they have that authority is not going to change that authority until the laws change. Your interpertation of the Constitution is great. Your interpertation of law is wrong.

I am basing my opinion primarily on US Constitutional law which prohibits any state from creating laws that violate the Constitution.

Below is another example of how policies and penal codes have no power over the Constitution.

The NFL established policies requiring all spectators to be patted down before allowing admittence into the stadium. Well a fan objected to this and filed a lawsuit with the assistence of the ACLU and both a State judge and a Federal Judge have both blocked this practice.

This is a good example of a practice that most people had consented to allow, but was not a legal right under the constitutional. Because spectators agreed to the patdown (ie. gave consent), they waived their rights and it was allowed to continue, everyone just followed the leader. It took just one person to refuse a patdown for this practice to stop. Of course the hourly cops and security guards, who arent attorneys, probably didnt know what to do if someone refused a patdown, so they probably didnt allow him in. But, im sure he will get his ticket value back from his lawsuit.

Thats the power of citizens and the rights provided to citizens under the constitution.

Again thousands of fans were being searched, it just took 1 person to make a difference!

Tampa Buccaneers Fans Free from Mass Random Searches

TAMPA, FL -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Florida today announced that a federal judge has blocked mass pat-down searches at Buccaneer games, stating that the public “has a compelling interest in preserving the constitutional right to be free from unreasonable governmental intrusion.”

The court order follows a similar injunction issued by a state court judge in October of last year and prohibits mass random searches of Tampa Buccaneers patrons without individualized suspicion. In both rulings, the courts held that the Fourth Amendment protects Americans from unreasonable searches such as those being conducted at Raymond James Stadium, which is owned and operated by the Tampa Sports Authority.

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/searchseizure/26276prs20060728.html

 

[faraway]

Invsgst; Thanks for bringing some astute observations to this heated discussion. In all, it looks very much like the officers
involved might have been better trained in de-escalation, negotiation, and simply not resorting to excessive use of force.
In general I have not posted much on TFL, over the last year. But this situation could not be foreborne without comment.
One element, which seems to be not fully addressed here, is the effect these officers conduct will have on future relations
at this campus. At some colleges, the students are from fairly stable backgrounds, and as such are not accustomed to
seeing violent acts, by whomsoever it might be executing those acts. This mess, is certainly going to ensure that they
will be reluctant to contact this police dept, for anything. Since one of the more serious criminal acts on and near college campus's,
tends to be sexual assaults..it is very unlikely after this event, victims will feel willing to contact the authorities.
Some might say the two conditions are unrelated, but the reality of pyschological perceptions, ensure that this linkage
will be made.
Additionally, because this event was so poorly handled, there is virtual certainty there will be further incidents between
the students and that department.
The consequences of these 'electrical idiots' are going to extend far beyond the initial incident, and attendant legal action.
What they have done, is compromise the reputations, of the professional officers, within that department. And very likely,
have compromised their ability to serve.
In that regard, was tasering someone for refusing a 'command' worth the potential costs?
(gentry apologies for the format, but have to write quickly, before the ISP fails...again

 

[Al Norris]

I went to the link (Blake Ross' Blog) that invssgt supplied, and what did I find? A PDF on the UCPD Taser Policy.

Plus, there is the report complied by Mr. Ross that methodically lays out what happened, and gives several links to the various reports, official and not so official.

Critical to any discussion of such events, is to actually read as much as we can of the events. All too often, all we have to base an opinion on, is the single report by the media. Here, we have multiple reports on which to form an opinion. I suggest we use these resources.

Once you've read the reports, you might want to take a gander at what LawDog wrote, Meditations on Police Brutality. Insightful to say the least.

 

[johnbt]

"The NFL established policies requiring all spectators to be patted down before allowing admittence into the stadium. Well a fan objected to this and filed a lawsuit with the assistence of the ACLU and both a State judge and a Federal Judge have both blocked this practice."

That's funny, the Redskins are still doing it. Yes, I've been to the games this year and been patted down.

This thread is full of misinformation and incomplete information. I really liked the long report by the student who didn't see the beginning of the episode and didn't see this and didn't see that. Very informative.

John

 

[mvpel]

This part sums it up pretty well:

In Texas -- we have business as usual. The critter was offered a way out without arrest, when that failed he was given a chance to be arrested like a civilised human being, and when that failed he was snatched, hooked and booked. Five minutes, no muss-no fuss.

In California -- Sweet Holy Jeebus! I have brutally smashed this kids face into a wood table top; I have sadistically picked him up by the upper lip; and I have squashed his squishy bits flat as he walked to the patrol car.

 

[jcoiii]

Preface and qualification: I am a police officer on a college campus.


1) The School policy mandated that people using the library provide ID upon request. The library personnel asked for ID and were refused. This is a violation of school rules (not law). The library called the campus police (or whatever PD responds for them.) The police ask the student, who is breaking campus rules, to leave the premises. For our school, this policy and authority is spelled out in the Student Handbook.

At this point, the student has two options: leave or don't leave. The student chose "don't leave." MY next step would be escort the student out, probably by taking hold of an arm in a technique we call a "come-a-long" which is basically a wrist lock. It's can be slightly painful or really painful, depending on the amount of pressure applied. It's used to walk people from one place to another while keeping them from running/fighting/etc.

Again, the student has a choice. He chooses to resist. He is in the wrong, at this point, and the officers cannot simply just say "oh, well, ok. Nevermind. You don't have to leave." The student is shocked with the tazer because he is resisting. Pepper spray is out because of the crowd. Batons are out because of the crowd and also possibly due to the dept's force continuum. (Officer choice: hand to hand fight or taze.)

The officer's taze the student, who goes to the ground. The officers roll the student over to cuff him. If the student is still fighting the cuffing process, taze him again to get him to stop fighting. (I can't tell if this is the case here or not. Just stating.) Now he's cuffed. Mistake #1- the officers did not just get him out immediately.

2) Student is in custody. So far, so good. He needs to be taken out. He's dragging his feet and passively resisting. In our force policy, passive resistance does not merit tazing. Ours calls for "soft hands" which basically translates to grabbing, pulling, some wrist or arm locks, etc. Not even punching or striking falls under this level. Just drag the guy out, or to the elevator, or whatever.

At this point, it appears, based on the accounts moreso than the video, that the officers were pissed off at this guy for causing this scene and for not just walking. This is where they lost control. Tazing a person in cuffs is frowned upon unless there are exigent circumstances. I.E., they are still fighting you, actively.

My partner and I watched this and our opinion was this. Taze the guy initially. Cuff him. and then GET HIM THE HECK OUT OF THERE QUICKLY. No extra tazing, and you don't risk a riot either.

 

[mvpel]

Student is in custody. So far, so good. He needs to be taken out. He's dragging his feet and passively resisting. In our force policy, passive resistance does not merit tazing.

Yeah, I think this is precisely where the wheels fell off in this situation.

I'm strong enough to deal with my two year old's spaghetti legs without a taser, I'd like to think that two or three cops are strong enough to likewise deal with a spaghetti-legged college student.

 

[tyme]

I just love the anonymous author who commented toward the end of Lawdog's blog post, talking about how the families of the officers don't deserve to be punished.

Well then, just guarantee job security to everyone, because heaven forbid they make a boneheaded decision and get demoted or fired, causing their families to endure hardship!

The cops are lucky they weren't mobbed and overrun. If there had been a few more students with radical ideologies present, I think some of the cops/CSOs could have ended up in the hospital.

Opinions to the entire incident seem split depending on whether we identify the ID-less kid as a liberal idiot who deserved everything he got, or as a luckless student who got hassled after forgetting his ID and being reluctant to leave.

 

[johnbt]

The 2 articles I read said he had an ID but thought they were picking on him because he looked foreign/arab/muslim/whatever. He REFUSED to show it and started protesting almost immediately.

Who knows what really happened.

I'm surprised some librarian about the size of Granny Clampett didn't punch 'em all out for being too noisy.

John

 

[mvpel]

I'm surprised some librarian about the size of Granny Clampett didn't punch 'em all out for being too noisy.

If she asked me to leave, I'd comply.

 

[tyme]

IF that's the case, they should have discovered his ID before or just after they cuffed him (officer safety frisk, you know). If he had ID but no student ID, they would have called it in to see if he's a student, and to check for warrants. They would have discovered no warrants (at least nothing major, because in reality he was released and given a court date), AND that he was a student. At that point they should have stopped all use of force and let him go. He was allowed to be in the library, his attitude and failure to comply with campus security notwithstanding, and they knew who he was. They could have written up the incident and handed it off to student affairs.

So... Is there a reliable account that says he had some form of ID?

 

[jcoiii]

Tyme, according to the rules set forth on our college campus, it is not my job (campus police) to identify a student. They are required to present ID immediately upon request, or be asked to leave. If they refuse, they are to be escorted off the campus by an officer(s). It is possible for me, after having cuffed and subdued this theorhetical individual, to reach into his pants, pull out his wallet and check for his student ID. I could probably (if the system hasn't been shut down for the night) check his driver's license and see if the name on the license is on our "rolls."

However, that does not negate his responsibility to immediately provide ID upon request. The student's sign a contract upon admission to the school which, among other things, states that they will comply with all laws and regulations set forth by the state and the school. If said student does not comply, they are subject to penalties ranging from internal, school-decided penalties to criminal charges.

Editted to add: By the way, our campus PD does not keep record of criminal background. We would have to call the local Sheriff's office for those checks. Obviously the Sheriffs office will have no idea if a person is a student at a local college. Local PDs don't have that info. It's two separate systems thanks to FERPA (think HIPPA for education).

 

[kirin]

Did anyone read this official police report?

LMAO, this seems far fetched from all the news reports and interviews with witnesses. Im looking forward to seeing the facts come out, to see if the police might have exagerated?

Here are some points that seem to be contradictive to other reports:

Since, after repeated requests, he would neither leave nor show identification, the CSO notified UCPD officers, who responded and asked Tabatabainejad to leave the premises multiple times. He continued to refuse. As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building.

Tabatabainejab encouraged library patrons to join his resistance. A crowd gathering around the officers and Tabatebainejad's continued resistance made it urgent to remove Tabatabainejad from the area. The officers deemed it necessary to use the Taser in a "drive stun" capacity.

http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser 11-15-06.pdf

All the reports i read said that Tabatabainejad started to exit the library and UCPD officers stopped him.

Second, if you watch the video, the tasering began long before students gathered around. I recall two taserings before students started getting up to watch. Then after the 3rd tasering students started shouting out at the officers.