UCLA Student Tased: Justifiable?

Most colleges and universities have a rule that you must show an ID if asked by a legal authority. If you don’t, you are trespassing. Sorry, that’s the rule. If you violate it, you have broken the law. Guess what. The idiot broke the law by refusing to comply with the university rules.

What did law enforcement officers do before they had Tasers? They beat the person with batons. Not a great way to go. Way back when, officers had a bunch of things to use- blackjacks and saps come to mind. If you smack someone upside the head with a blackjack, they usually comply. Officers can’t use those anymore.

If you advocate me jumping on a guy that is spouting all of the crap the guy in this incident was spouting when I can tase him instead, you are pretty ignorant. Someone gets hurt everytime an officer goes hands-on. A lot of times, it’s the officer. Officers have a tendency to attempt to be gentle when going hands-on and then they are the ones hurt. I’ll go for the tase him route any day. I’ll easily back up my reasons in court.

He was uncooperative- he showed signs he would fight. I don’t have any reason to go hands on with a person who is being uncooperative when I have tools available to subdue him.

The only problem I have with the whole incident is that the officers showed too much restraint. They should have acted much quicker.
 
Most colleges and universities have a rule that you must show an ID if asked by a legal authority. If you don’t, you are trespassing. Sorry, that’s the rule. If you violate it, you have broken the law. Guess what. The idiot broke the law by refusing to comply with the university rules.
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Seems fair. Then again, one might say that going straight to on-the-spot corporal punishment might seem extreme. Might want to at least call a judge first.

What did law enforcement officers do before they had Tasers? They beat the person with batons. Not a great way to go. Way back when, officers had a bunch of things to use- blackjacks and saps come to mind. If you smack someone upside the head with a blackjack, they usually comply. Officers can’t use those anymore.

If you advocate me jumping on a guy that is spouting all of the crap the guy in this incident was spouting when I can tase him instead, you are pretty ignorant. Someone gets hurt everytime an officer goes hands-on. A lot of times, it’s the officer. Officers have a tendency to attempt to be gentle when going hands-on and then they are the ones hurt. I’ll go for the tase him route any day. I’ll easily back up my reasons in court.
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All of these are perfectly valid reasons for the student to have been stunned once, maybe twice, while he was being cuffed.

In the end, they managed to carry him out (yes, it seems a half dozen or so pokes from the stungun didn't get him to walk on his own after all), and nobody (officer or student) seemed to have gotten hurt. Well, one of them endured a lot of unnecessary pain, but who cares, right? He talked back to the cops.

He was uncooperative- he showed signs he would fight. I don’t have any reason to go hands on with a person who is being uncooperative when I have tools available to subdue him.
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No, after the first tase he showed signs he would sit there and cry like a little girl. So why not go straight to carrying the (at this point already handcuffed) student out the door instead of shocking him a few more times? I have yet to hear a decent explanation on this one. [EDIT: Note that at least one tase is clearly inflicted while the student is cuffed, held by two officers, and not being violent.]

In the end, the cops carried the student out in cuffs. He did not walk out on his own. So why the extra three or four tases? My guess? Because he undermined their authority, and cops get pissed when you do that. The attitude of the cop who threatens to tase the bystander supports this, as does nearly every experience myself or anybody I know has had with cops who were not personal friends.
 
Quote from BGlaze- Yes, but the boy was a student there, who had all rights to be there? Would the Police have the right to ask him to leave? (not being difficult, actually asking)

Yes. You have to show ID if requested at almost every university I know of. Failure to do so means you have broken a university policy- which then can become a crime. If you break a policy, you can be ordered to leave the property.

Quote from Heist-

So, I'll tell you what, you can go look through the rest of the internet until you find, read, and understand a copy of the Bill of Rights. Hell, you don't even have to read the whole thing, just the first blippity-blanking sentence.

If you don't understand that this is the problem, then I don't know what to do for you.

Flopping to the ground is belligerent? Man, so what do you think police should do if they run across someone having an epileptic fit? You've got the epilepsy, you get the taser. Life sucks, but cops gotta worry about their safety too, don't they?

Not complyin' with the police - that's a taser'n. Talking out of turn? That's a taser'n. Lookin' out the window? That's a taser'n. Staring at my sandals? That's a taser'n.

You have a rather small grasp of the whole concept of the Bill of Rights. And even a less of a grasp of real world situations.

Quote from JuanCarlos- Lastly, I'd like to comment on something I've noticed in every comment I've ever heard from a cop regarding any case like this; am I the only one who think that the absolute refusal of LEOs to ever publicly question the actions of another LEO, regardless of how out of line, might be part of why the public often has such a negative opinion of them? I don't think most cops would go to town on a handcuffed kid who is being held just because he refuses to walk on his own...but when no officer seems willing to suggest that this is clearly out of line, it implies that they would.

As I stated earlier, I’d have tased him much earlier than the officers on scene did. IMO, the officers were only out-of-line because they allowed the incident to go on as long as they did. It gave the subject time to gain support from by-standers and that adversely escalated the situation.
 
Then again, one might say that going straight to on-the-spot corporal punishment might seem extreme.
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"Straight to?" What are you talking about? The cops only showed up after he told the campus security to go pound sand while they attempted to enforce the students-only after 11pm rule.
 
"Straight to?" What are you talking about? The cops only showed up after he told the campus security to go pound sand while they attempted to enforce the students-only after 11pm rule.
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I meant "straight to," as in before he was booked/charged/arraigned/convicted. He was charged with only one thing in the end, interfering with an officer. And he was severely punished for that infraction before he ever got near the cruiser.

As I stated earlier, I’d have tased him much earlier than the officers on scene did. IMO, the officers were only out-of-line because they allowed the incident to go on as long as they did. It gave the subject time to gain support from by-standers and that adversely escalated the situation.
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I'm not asking whether you would have tased him at all...I'm asking whether you would have continued to do so, when it was doing nothing to solve the situation.

Straight yes or no question: were the officers out of line for tasing a student who was already cuffed/subdued, was being held by two officers on either side, and who was not acting violently?

Straight yes or no question: would you have tased the student when he was roughly fifteen feet from the door, had already been carried that far, and was also still cuffed and not being violent?

Straight yes or no question: if the answers to either of the above is no, do you consider these actions to be police brutality, and should the officers be charged as such?
 
'm not asking whether you would have tased him at all...I'm asking whether you would have continued to do so, when it was doing nothing to solve the situation.

Maybe.

Straight yes or no question: were the officers out of line for tasing a student who was already cuffed/subdued, was being held by two officers on either side, and who was not acting violently?

Maybe.

Straight yes or no question: would you have tased the student when he was roughly fifteen feet from the door, had already been carried that far, and was also still cuffed and not being nonviolent?

Probably.

Straight yes or no question: if the answers to either of the above is no, do you consider these actions to be police brutality, and should the officers be charged as such?

No!
 
One illuminating piece of information here would be a copy of the LAPD use of force policy, particularly with respect to Tasers - whether Tasers (or punching in the face, in another situation) is considered by the brass to be an acceptable way to gain compliance from an uncooperative suspect. The punching incident is under investigation by the FBI, I gather.

I went on a ride-along in San Jose, California, and it was striking to have an up close and personal understanding of the fact that the police are the clenched fist of the law, so to speak - the mechanism by which government exerts force on its citizens to compel their compliance with its demands. The exertion of this kind of force is rarely nice to look at, regardless of the situation.

Here, I found something on the LAPD site: http://www.lapdonline.org/lapd_manual/
Multiple Commands Involved - 3/793.25
Multiple Uses of Force - 3/793.30
Apprehension of Offenders-Policy - 1/130.30

...etc. Not sure if anything useful isor interesting is going to be in there...
 
The taser is a WEAPON designed for Non Lethal self defense ... Not a Dog's shock collar used to make an animal obey.

Just amazing what we've been programmed to accept. The Human Command acceptance remote control.

4-5 Campas Cops there and they couldn't pick him up and carry him off.

No instead let's use our potentially lethal taser toy .

Amazing.

Had that been my son , there'd be hell to pay for what they did to that kid.
 
Wow!

This is blown way out of proportion! The kid was asked to leave and didn't do so. He was tazed and restrained when he started to cause a disturbance after being asked to leave. He was told to stand up multiple times and still refused to comply, so he was tased some more. Did you hear him? "Is no one going to stop these guys?" Let me answer that for him: NO! The law enforcement did their job. And yes, the patriot act comment shows ecatly how smart that college boy really was. Also, everyone keeps asking about the officer threatening to taze another student for asking for his badge number!:rolleyes: The kids were up in the cops faces throwing their arms around like they wanted to do something. The cops were trying to provide a perimeter for the officers restraining the kid that screams like a girl. The officer told a student who was withing a few inches of his face to back up, when he didn't comply he told him to back up or he would also get tazed! I think they did a fine job taking out the trash!

One more thing: as a college student I can tell you that if Student ID is required to enter a campus location and you don't have it, then you are not allowed in under any circumstances. If they let in everybody who "forgot" their ID then they would be letting a lot of people in who didn't pay tuition. He WAS trespassing. If he truly forgot his ID then why didn't he just go get it and come back instead of act like a complete idiot and scream incoherent things like a girl? I have a theory, he was a punk who was looking for trouble! Looks like he found it!
 
Like I said ... programmed acceptance.

It's not a weapon originally designed for self defence that inflicts terrible pain and possible death on the victim ...

it's the new and improved Human Command Acceptance Remote Control.

It's been tested for years on cattle . They never seem to mind too much.

:cool:
 
Any use of the taser, after the student was cuffed, was TORTURE. I suspect the jury will see it the same way.

badbob
 
So are tazers only supposed to be used in defense or in instances of non-compliance?
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My understanding of the drive-stun mode the officers were using is that it's intended for the latter situation. It's supposed to cause pain to gain compliance from an uncooperative suspect. Some departments discourage the use of that mode, but apparantly this one doesn't.
 
So are tazers only supposed to be used in defense or in instances of non-compliance?
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Defence? A jury would probably say yes.
Non-compliance? A gray area. Some argument possible, up to the point the suspect is restrained. After that point it's torture, at least to most of the human race.
You seem to have a problem with people that may, or may not , be "yuppies." Your quotes below:

*SLAP*

"Now quit crying!"

*Slap Slap*

"I said quit crying!"

"How *Slap* many times *slap slap* do I have to *slap* SLAP you before you stop *slap* crying!?"
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Question. Why didn't he get up when asked? Why did they have to tell him to "Stand Up" 18,000,000 times?
Eh, feces transpires. If I was a security guard at that college I'd probably be a little over zealous to pop some yuppies too...
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Well juan, if you were a university cop at yuppie central, which would YOU use? I'd leave libraries full of incapacitated rich kids in my wake...

"How do you turn this blasted thing to 11?"
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badbob
 
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/16/student.stunned.ap/index.html




LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- A UCLA police officer shocked a student with a stun gun at a campus library after he refused repeated requests to show student identification and wouldn't leave, police said.

The student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, was shocked Tuesday at about 11 p.m. as police did a routine check of student IDs at the University of California, Los Angeles Powell Library computer lab.

"This is a long-standing library policy to ensure the safety of students during the late-night hours," said UCLA Police Department spokeswoman Nancy Greenstein.

She said police tried to escort Tabatabainejad, 23, out of the library after he refused to provide identification. Tabatabainejad instead encouraged others at the library to join his resistance, and when a crowd began to gather, police used the stun gun on him, Greenstein said.

Tabatabainejad was arrested for resisting and obstructing a police officer and later released on his own recognizance. He declined to comment Wednesday night.

The incident was recorded on another student's camera phone and showed Tabatabainejad screaming while on the floor of the computer lab.

It was the third incident in a month in which police behavior in the city was criticized after amateur video surfaced. The other two involved the Los Angeles Police Department.

Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams promised an investigation.

"The safety of our campus community is of paramount importance to me," Abrams said in a statement.
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The purpose of police is to subdue and to gain the compliance of, by force if necessary, suspected or known lawbreakers. The Taser is not a defensive weapon, the sidearm is a defensive weapon. The Taser is a less-lethal method of forcing a suspect to comply with the demands of the officer, just as is a baton, pepper spray, and hands-on physical grappling.

Here's a policy guide for Taser use from the Miami police.

To wit:

18.4.3 Authorized Use of the Taser: The Taser may be utilized in arrest situations when necessary to subdue a noncompliant subject when lesser means of control have not been successful at the Active Physical, Aggressive Physical, or Aggravated Physical Resistance Level.
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18.4.4 Warnings: Prior to deploying the Taser, verbal warnings shall be issued to the subject, whenever reasonable and practical, to allow the subject the opportunity to comply with the officer’s commands.
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On the other hand, here's a big strike against the LAPD officers in question, if in fact the subject was handcuffed, which I couldn't make out in the furtive video I saw:

The Taser shall not be used on...
Handcuffed prisoners, without the expressed authority of a supervisor. Exigent circumstances must exist (such as to prevent the subject from injuring himself or others).
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I found a powerpoint presentation that says it takes an average of 2 taser cycles to gain compliance from a subject, but it also says on slide 40 that a taser should not be used on a handcuffed or secured person except in cases of aggravated aggression.
 
The purpose of police is to subdue and to gain the compliance of, by force if necessary, suspected or known lawbreakers. The Taser is not a defensive weapon, the sidearm is a defensive weapon. The Taser is a less-lethal method of forcing a suspect to comply with the demands of the officer
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Silly me, here I thought the Taser occupied a useful position between a billy club and a handgun, allowing crazy guys with knives and belligerant quarterbacks to be taken down without having bullets in them.

But hey, using it as a torture-compliance tool is fine if it doesn't cause lasting injury, right? :barf:
 
That's why the policy of Miami, as indicated above, is to only use it on active physical resistance and up. Passive resistance doesn't cut it. Sorry, thought that was clear in my post.

Given the "stand up" command, that sounds like passive physical resistence to me, though it's not very clear from the video. So these LAPD cops may be in trouble here if the LAPD taser policy is similar to Miami's.
 
My question here is... "How many people on this thread have ever been hit with a tazer?" Not too many I'm guessing. Some departments I know require officers to experience things before being allowed to carry them--like getting hit in the face with their issued pepper-spray, and being tazed. I couldn't tell by the video if it was an actual tazer or a little contact stun-gun. But if it was a tazer, it's no wonder the kid wasn't getting up right away. Every muscle in the effected region suddenly contracts very hard, all at once. A) It hurts. B) It tosses your nervous system for a loop, and things don't want to work right for a few minutes until it recovers. C) it physically exhausts you--it feels similar to maxing out your weight on a dead-lift set. After, you're jello for several minutes or more. So what were these idiots thinking? They weren't trying to get compliance, they were tormenting him, making him an example, and showing off their "authority". They kept hitting him with a charge of electricity that is designed and fully capable of temporarily incapacitating someone. You don't just get up from that. Trust me, it does a number on motor skills. And when they kept zapping him over and over, yah--I'm not surprised they finally carried him out, because he wasn't going to be too capable of leaving on his own after that. If all I could do is lay there trying to regain my ability to move and someone is yelling in my ear "stand up or I'll shock you again"---I think I'd have a few choice words for him too. Maybe he was just a moron making a scene--a professional team can handle it without stooping to making a scene of their own. UCLA PD acted very poorly and irresponsibly on this.
 
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