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TX-CHL Holder being hung out to dry
- Thread starter Darthmaum
- Start date
Gopher .45
New member
This will probably be the place to find any updates on the case:
http://www.austin360.com/news/
http://www.austin360.com/news/
As I read the thread the (supposed) threats of the BG are what persuade me one way or another. If someone were to threaten any of my female relations in such a manner (with their address and drivers license in his possesion) I would look at it as crime-prevention to educate him the Darwin way. Maybe I am a hot-head, or too intolerant of crime and criminals, having lived and feared in NYC.
In fact my sister lives in Austin and used to live in the area where the Mopac rapist operated. I'd like to throw the switch on him, were it possible.
I like kjm's analysis.
In fact my sister lives in Austin and used to live in the area where the Mopac rapist operated. I'd like to throw the switch on him, were it possible.
I like kjm's analysis.
The way I heard it from the cop (and again, I could be dead wrong) was that the incident actually started inside a bar, where the girl worked, and she put her wallet/purse down.
Coincidentally, the deceased was in the bar around the same time and was VERY drunk and told to leave.
At closing time she couldn't find her wallet/purse. When approaching the guy for stealing the car, he didn't know that the guy had the purse. I heard that they wrestled, AND HE AVOIDED SHOOTING; and followed only after hearing his girlfriend's address. . . . .
Now, I heard that all of what happened is on the 911 tape. Hearing this story 4th hand it may have been embellished a bit. Or, this being the media, they may have left out bits like this. Either way, yes, the defendant is in a lot of trouble (i.e. being in court); but if what I heard is correct he had a proper reason for following the guy, after going out of his WAY to avoid a shooting, then shot in self defense while following. . . . .
Or not, in which case whether or not they nail him to a cross. . . . . will go either way.
Battler.
Coincidentally, the deceased was in the bar around the same time and was VERY drunk and told to leave.
At closing time she couldn't find her wallet/purse. When approaching the guy for stealing the car, he didn't know that the guy had the purse. I heard that they wrestled, AND HE AVOIDED SHOOTING; and followed only after hearing his girlfriend's address. . . . .
Now, I heard that all of what happened is on the 911 tape. Hearing this story 4th hand it may have been embellished a bit. Or, this being the media, they may have left out bits like this. Either way, yes, the defendant is in a lot of trouble (i.e. being in court); but if what I heard is correct he had a proper reason for following the guy, after going out of his WAY to avoid a shooting, then shot in self defense while following. . . . .
Or not, in which case whether or not they nail him to a cross. . . . . will go either way.
Battler.
Gopher .45
New member
http://netarrant.net/news/doc/1047/1:STATE57/1:STATE57071098.html
Original story, but no updates on the current trial yet...
Austin man charged with murder in shooting of would-be thief.
By Juan B. Elizondo Jr.
Associated Press
AUSTIN -- An Austin man licensed to carry a concealed handgun has been charged with murder in the shooting death of a would-be thief.
Austin police on Thursday filed the murder charge, a first-degree felony, against 33-year-old Paul A. Saustrup. According to police, Saustrup shot to death Eric Demart Smith early Wednesday after Smith broke into a vehicle owned by Saustrup's girlfriend.
Police said the couple walked up on Smith as he was sitting in the vehicle. Saustrup pulled out a .380 handgun and attempted to keep Smith in the truck while his girlfriend called police. But Smith, 20, jumped out of the vehicle and began to "walk briskly" away and the couple followed him, investigators said.
Joe Turner, Saustrup's attorney, said his client warned Smith to keep his hands visible. Smith, according to Turner, kept saying he'd have "his homeboys" shoot Saustrup and continued walking into a darkened area of the street.
"He made a move to his belt area and started to twist around," Turner said. "My client did not want to shoot this person. He was still on the phone with 911. . . . He wanted the police to arrest him (Smith)."
Assistant Police Chief Mike McDonald said Smith was not armed and had not taken anything from the vehicle.
Assistant Travis County District Attorney Buddy Meyer said whether the shooting was justified will have to be resolved in court.
Smith was shot once behind the left shoulder blade and once behind the right shoulder blade, said Travis County Medical Examiner Robert Bayardo. Both shots, fired from a distance of at least three feet, entered Smith's heart, the medical examiner said.
Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said the agency isn't allowed to say what caliber handgun Saustrup was licensed to carry as a concealed weapon.
Turner said he believed the .380 handgun was the weapon Saustrup was qualified to carry.
Turner added that state law allows the use of deadly force to defend property from nighttime theft. But he said Saustrup was not exercising that right.
"He only fired after he felt immediately threatened," Turner said. "I think in the totality of the circumstances that a jury is going to find that this was reasonable if it gets that far."
Saustrup faces up to life in prison if convicted. He was being held in the Travis County jail. Bond was set at $100,000.
Turner said the case next will be presented to a grand jury for formal indictment.
"We're hoping we'll get justice there," he said.
Distributed by The Associated Press (AP)
Original story, but no updates on the current trial yet...
Austin man charged with murder in shooting of would-be thief.
By Juan B. Elizondo Jr.
Associated Press
AUSTIN -- An Austin man licensed to carry a concealed handgun has been charged with murder in the shooting death of a would-be thief.
Austin police on Thursday filed the murder charge, a first-degree felony, against 33-year-old Paul A. Saustrup. According to police, Saustrup shot to death Eric Demart Smith early Wednesday after Smith broke into a vehicle owned by Saustrup's girlfriend.
Police said the couple walked up on Smith as he was sitting in the vehicle. Saustrup pulled out a .380 handgun and attempted to keep Smith in the truck while his girlfriend called police. But Smith, 20, jumped out of the vehicle and began to "walk briskly" away and the couple followed him, investigators said.
Joe Turner, Saustrup's attorney, said his client warned Smith to keep his hands visible. Smith, according to Turner, kept saying he'd have "his homeboys" shoot Saustrup and continued walking into a darkened area of the street.
"He made a move to his belt area and started to twist around," Turner said. "My client did not want to shoot this person. He was still on the phone with 911. . . . He wanted the police to arrest him (Smith)."
Assistant Police Chief Mike McDonald said Smith was not armed and had not taken anything from the vehicle.
Assistant Travis County District Attorney Buddy Meyer said whether the shooting was justified will have to be resolved in court.
Smith was shot once behind the left shoulder blade and once behind the right shoulder blade, said Travis County Medical Examiner Robert Bayardo. Both shots, fired from a distance of at least three feet, entered Smith's heart, the medical examiner said.
Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said the agency isn't allowed to say what caliber handgun Saustrup was licensed to carry as a concealed weapon.
Turner said he believed the .380 handgun was the weapon Saustrup was qualified to carry.
Turner added that state law allows the use of deadly force to defend property from nighttime theft. But he said Saustrup was not exercising that right.
"He only fired after he felt immediately threatened," Turner said. "I think in the totality of the circumstances that a jury is going to find that this was reasonable if it gets that far."
Saustrup faces up to life in prison if convicted. He was being held in the Travis County jail. Bond was set at $100,000.
Turner said the case next will be presented to a grand jury for formal indictment.
"We're hoping we'll get justice there," he said.
Distributed by The Associated Press (AP)
One thing I noticed right off about that news report that Gopher posted is: "...the agency isn't allowed to say what
caliber handgun Saustrup was licensed to carry as a concealed weapon. Turner said he believed the .380 handgun was the weapon Saustrup was qualified to carry."
DUH! In TX, we aren't licensed to carry one caliber or another, it's action type (revolver vs. semi-auto). I usually carry both a 9mm and a .38 Spl at the same time! What morons.
To the story though, in Mr. Saustrup's shoes, I think I probably would have done the same thing. I for one hope the guy is found "not guilty." A first degree murder charge is ridiculous.
The DA and liberal media are going to make a political statement with this case, no doubt about it. That's why I originally said that he's being hung out to dry.
------------------
"Liberty or death, What we so proudly hail... Once you provoke Her, rattling of Her tail- Never begins it, NEVER- But once engaged never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage. DON'T TREAD ON ME!!
"Many's the men who've battled foe
many the number slain,
many the lads have fallen though
Scotland shall rise again."
caliber handgun Saustrup was licensed to carry as a concealed weapon. Turner said he believed the .380 handgun was the weapon Saustrup was qualified to carry."
DUH! In TX, we aren't licensed to carry one caliber or another, it's action type (revolver vs. semi-auto). I usually carry both a 9mm and a .38 Spl at the same time! What morons.
To the story though, in Mr. Saustrup's shoes, I think I probably would have done the same thing. I for one hope the guy is found "not guilty." A first degree murder charge is ridiculous.
The DA and liberal media are going to make a political statement with this case, no doubt about it. That's why I originally said that he's being hung out to dry.
------------------
"Liberty or death, What we so proudly hail... Once you provoke Her, rattling of Her tail- Never begins it, NEVER- But once engaged never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage. DON'T TREAD ON ME!!
"Many's the men who've battled foe
many the number slain,
many the lads have fallen though
Scotland shall rise again."
If I was Mr. Saustrup the first thing I would do would be to get a new attorney. One that that knew something about the Texas CHL law. Any attorney defending someone on these type of charges should know that caliber has nothing to do with the CHL law and that by making stupid statements to the media like that does not bode well for his client.
RKBA!
RKBA!
Battler, in Texas, Burglary of a Vehicle is a class 'A' misdemeanor, not a felony.
If I were his attorney, I'd be looking long and hard at the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, specifically:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Art. 18.16. [325] [376] [364] Preventing consequences of theft.
All persons have a right to prevent the consequences of theft by seizing any personal property which has been stolen and bringing it, with the supposed offender, if he can be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the same to a peace officer for that purpose. To justify such seizure,there must, however, be reasonable ground to suppose the property to be stolen, and the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay. [/quote]
Have to prove that a reasonable person would have believed that the victim was carrying the girlfriends wallet.
It wouldn't fly with me if I were on the jury, but it might work with anyone else.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited May 24, 2000).]
If I were his attorney, I'd be looking long and hard at the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, specifically:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Art. 18.16. [325] [376] [364] Preventing consequences of theft.
All persons have a right to prevent the consequences of theft by seizing any personal property which has been stolen and bringing it, with the supposed offender, if he can be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the same to a peace officer for that purpose. To justify such seizure,there must, however, be reasonable ground to suppose the property to be stolen, and the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay. [/quote]
Have to prove that a reasonable person would have believed that the victim was carrying the girlfriends wallet.
It wouldn't fly with me if I were on the jury, but it might work with anyone else.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited May 24, 2000).]
Another $0.02:
This case seems like a cliffhanger to me and I admit to waiting impatiently for its outcome. On the one hand, Austin is pretty well known for its left-wing politics and media, as well as for the anti-gun rhetoric of its officialdom that the people themselves elected. Sometimes the city hardly seems like a part of Texas at all. On the other hand, there's bound to be a core of citizens who know better. I hope that the jury is made up of such citizens.
If Saustrup is convicted, the gun haters and thugs will all have smirks on their faces. IMO, criminals in Austin will be more dangerous as a result of a guilty verdict. The message will be that, where the use of firearms in self-defense is concerned, the DA is an even greater danger to concealed handgun licensees and public safety than the criminals are. So licensees beware! This would not serve justice, but it may happen.
I'm sure that the placement of the bullets and the matter of Saustrup's following the criminal look bad for the shooter. The DA and the media have attached the obvious interpretation to them, but I think this interpretation is wrong. What's consistently overlooked in the media, but not by Saustrup's attorney, is that he was, it seems to me, behaving in a public spirit and was, in a way, a hero for trying to facilitate the police arrest of the BG in order to keep him from future depredations.
Now, I'm not saying that Saustrup's action or his role in the sequence of events was smart or wise or that I agree with it. Would I have done what Saustrup did? No! But then I'm sitting in my nice safe home rather than standing on a dark downtown street.
I am saying that I can see what Saustrup was trying to do, and that I don't believe he deserves to be convicted of murder.
Anyway, I'm told that trials in that area rarely if ever last more than a week. So we'll know soon enough.
This case seems like a cliffhanger to me and I admit to waiting impatiently for its outcome. On the one hand, Austin is pretty well known for its left-wing politics and media, as well as for the anti-gun rhetoric of its officialdom that the people themselves elected. Sometimes the city hardly seems like a part of Texas at all. On the other hand, there's bound to be a core of citizens who know better. I hope that the jury is made up of such citizens.
If Saustrup is convicted, the gun haters and thugs will all have smirks on their faces. IMO, criminals in Austin will be more dangerous as a result of a guilty verdict. The message will be that, where the use of firearms in self-defense is concerned, the DA is an even greater danger to concealed handgun licensees and public safety than the criminals are. So licensees beware! This would not serve justice, but it may happen.
I'm sure that the placement of the bullets and the matter of Saustrup's following the criminal look bad for the shooter. The DA and the media have attached the obvious interpretation to them, but I think this interpretation is wrong. What's consistently overlooked in the media, but not by Saustrup's attorney, is that he was, it seems to me, behaving in a public spirit and was, in a way, a hero for trying to facilitate the police arrest of the BG in order to keep him from future depredations.
Now, I'm not saying that Saustrup's action or his role in the sequence of events was smart or wise or that I agree with it. Would I have done what Saustrup did? No! But then I'm sitting in my nice safe home rather than standing on a dark downtown street.
I am saying that I can see what Saustrup was trying to do, and that I don't believe he deserves to be convicted of murder.
Anyway, I'm told that trials in that area rarely if ever last more than a week. So we'll know soon enough.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The Tx.guns newsgroup is following this case.
For what it's worth, I know several instructors and Saustrop is being held up as an example of what not to do in class and privately thought of as a less than brilliant person that might have damaged the reputations of CHLs in the state.
Two comments:
I once saw the dude of the tube and he looked pretty arrogant and pleased with himself. He'd better drop that attitude for the jury.
A preening commando is not the way to go.
Second, will the case hinge on the viability of the threat to his girl friend? Can they make it strong enough to justify his following the guy and shooting him for the dread furtive gesture?
I would ask - why didn't you think you could call the police and report the threat?
He would have to say some reason to think that wasn't the prudent thing to do.
Gotta to watch this one.
For what it's worth, I know several instructors and Saustrop is being held up as an example of what not to do in class and privately thought of as a less than brilliant person that might have damaged the reputations of CHLs in the state.
Two comments:
I once saw the dude of the tube and he looked pretty arrogant and pleased with himself. He'd better drop that attitude for the jury.
A preening commando is not the way to go.
Second, will the case hinge on the viability of the threat to his girl friend? Can they make it strong enough to justify his following the guy and shooting him for the dread furtive gesture?
I would ask - why didn't you think you could call the police and report the threat?
He would have to say some reason to think that wasn't the prudent thing to do.
Gotta to watch this one.
The jury verdict in Austin on Saturday was, NOT GUILTY! Judging by what he knew at the time, he had observed the guy committing a crime and the guy told him he was a gang banger (why would he lie?), when the guy turned it was resonable to believe that he was turning to attack so the shooting was ruled justifiable. The BG had a long criminal history and his family was unhappy with the decision. I guess they wanted us to continue to pay for there miserable failure. A local preacher urged black youth (we don't have very many) to arm themselves and shoot back to defend themselves. He did not mention that all they have to do in not commit crimes and they won't be shot. The world is a better place today, one less waster of air on the planet. Only a million or so more to go.
PLASTIC SIG
New member
I think everyone here has overlooked something. Yes the man was legally able to carry and used that in the killing. What if he was inside his home and did not own a handgun but had a loaded shotgun (which most texans do) in his home and used that in the murder? does it really make a diffrence?
I live near baltimore and i see how the "homeboys" are always reaching into their pants motioning as if they were pulling a gun. (they call it clowning) How did the good guy know if he had a gun or not? I agree he shouldnt have followed him into the alley, but i think he did feel as if his life were threatnened and acted accordingly. Im sure this goes further than self defense in the eyes of the black community, but then again it always does.
Bottom line is, the fact that the good guy had a carry permit really shouldnt have anything to do with it. Lets also not forget that the good guy didnt have a record of murder, and the criminal has been terrorizing people for too long.
Tim
------------------
Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones. U.S. Marshals:::
I live near baltimore and i see how the "homeboys" are always reaching into their pants motioning as if they were pulling a gun. (they call it clowning) How did the good guy know if he had a gun or not? I agree he shouldnt have followed him into the alley, but i think he did feel as if his life were threatnened and acted accordingly. Im sure this goes further than self defense in the eyes of the black community, but then again it always does.
Bottom line is, the fact that the good guy had a carry permit really shouldnt have anything to do with it. Lets also not forget that the good guy didnt have a record of murder, and the criminal has been terrorizing people for too long.
Tim
------------------
Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones. U.S. Marshals:::
The use (or not) of deadly force is an important subject, made most important with the diversity of state and local statute.
Perhaps deadly force could be a forum of its own on TFL. In the short time I've been a member of TFL, I've come to respect the insight and depth of thinking shown here. The analysis and opinion reflected in this thread is an example - not only opinion, but quick research of fact to support further discussion.
A forum dedicated to deadly force may help us and those who just visit to know and understand both their responsibilities and their rights in these situations.
I am sure that we will learn much about laws respecting deadly force across the country and those cases that arise from its use. And what is learned here may well save a life ... in more ways than one.
Andy Barr
Virginia
Perhaps deadly force could be a forum of its own on TFL. In the short time I've been a member of TFL, I've come to respect the insight and depth of thinking shown here. The analysis and opinion reflected in this thread is an example - not only opinion, but quick research of fact to support further discussion.
A forum dedicated to deadly force may help us and those who just visit to know and understand both their responsibilities and their rights in these situations.
I am sure that we will learn much about laws respecting deadly force across the country and those cases that arise from its use. And what is learned here may well save a life ... in more ways than one.
Andy Barr
Virginia
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
www.ccwforums.com has a Deadly Force section.
Glenn: Funny, I took a CHL class in Jan and the Saustrup case wasn't used as a "what not to do".
Indeed, when I spoke up and said "he shouldn't have shot him in the back" I was used in a demonstration of how dangerous someone with their back turned (with a plastic gun) can be.
Someone who uses deadly force in defense must have his actions reviewed - but remember a grand jury acquitted Saustrup years ago - his case was quit political. I think what we can get from Saustrup is that, right or wrong, life in danger or not, you pull that piece you're in a world of grief.
Battler.
Indeed, when I spoke up and said "he shouldn't have shot him in the back" I was used in a demonstration of how dangerous someone with their back turned (with a plastic gun) can be.
Someone who uses deadly force in defense must have his actions reviewed - but remember a grand jury acquitted Saustrup years ago - his case was quit political. I think what we can get from Saustrup is that, right or wrong, life in danger or not, you pull that piece you're in a world of grief.
Battler.