Mike Irwin
Staff
Yep, classic case split, what I call a case burn through.
tula 45acp case wall blowout.....
- Thread starter Evil Monkey
- Start date
There is another reason for brass splitting, usually seen in military rifle ammunition, though it is not a common any more. During wartime, powder manufacture becomes hurried and sometimes the acid used in making powder is not completely washed out of the powder. When cartridges are left lying on their sides in long term storage, that acid can eat into the brass cartridge case from the inside. There is seldom any indication of the damage on the outside, but when the cartridge is fired, the brass splits or burns through at the weakened spot.
Note that this has nothing to do with the primer or the priming material; it related only to the powder.
Jim
Note that this has nothing to do with the primer or the priming material; it related only to the powder.
Jim
Evil Monkey
New member
I said "usually". Meaning 9 times out of 10. It's not always the firearms fault, but the way it is built/designed certainly helps.
5+mm vertical split. Did not reach case web or mouth.
I'm not an expert.
Poor granularity in the casing that cannot be QC'ed by the manufacturer.
I would not call you that.
Exactly.
nope.
I think a major problem, is steel cased western calibers in locked breach firearms.
Due to the brittle nature of soft steel compared to annealed brass, there is a higher likelihood of a steel case splitting and resulting in a stuck casing that requires disassembly to remove, more in thin walled non-tapered western cartridges, than in Russian cartridges.
45acp and 40sw being big culprits.
These came from a mac 10 and never got stuck, I assume due to the blow back operating system which does not involve a locked breach.
I bought a set of the most expensive road tires for my pickup truck. Said tires were defective in that they did not have steel belt reinforcements they were supposed to have, and this was unnoticed by QC. While going 55 on the highway two tires blew up, I lost control and totaled my truck. Following the logic on this thread truck manufacturer is at fault because he did not design truck to function properly on two blown up tires. I'm an idiot!
Evil --
Given the crack in the Tula case you describe what does support or lack of support have to do with anything as the case failure did not occur in the area of the case which is what is discussed when discussing supported or unsupported chambers? I do not think it is safe to assume that the unsupported area in another gun's chamber would have blown out as the case wall is going to be thicker there, and depending upon how the case is made the metal there may well be less brittle / less work hardened. It may be possible but it is far from a given in my opinion.
Maybe the Mac rounds did not get stuck because the Mac had a looser chamber (actually was that not mentioned in the Uzi talk thread that picutre was from? I have seen it before)? or a more finely polished chamber? We can't know. Not digging at Taurus but it does not take much in the way of a rough finish to make a casing stick in a chamber. I can not count the number of Ruger 22 chambers I have had to polish to increase reliability or even ease extraction in revolvers.
I would find the experience that you had with Tula ammo to be unacceptable. While you may have fired 1500 rounds without issue, when you did have an issue it was a significant pain and if your theory is correct could have damaged other guns more. I find 1 in 1500 to be unacceptable, given the fact I have a 5 gallon pail of brass 45 casings from this year with no failures like that.
I do suspect that it is a materials problem. No idea if they anneal the cases after making them, if so maybe that one slipped through? Or it's a bad steel lot, or a heavy charge? Either way this should not happen, and there should be enough of a safety margin / fudge factor or QC that this does to happen.
Given that the 45 acp is a rather low pressure round I would not be running to the store to buy some 40 S+W tula ammo........
Lastly when it comes to steel case ammo no one can convince me that it i a good idea to replace all of the brass on steel sliding / wear that occurs in a gun with steel on steel.
Given the crack in the Tula case you describe what does support or lack of support have to do with anything as the case failure did not occur in the area of the case which is what is discussed when discussing supported or unsupported chambers? I do not think it is safe to assume that the unsupported area in another gun's chamber would have blown out as the case wall is going to be thicker there, and depending upon how the case is made the metal there may well be less brittle / less work hardened. It may be possible but it is far from a given in my opinion.
Maybe the Mac rounds did not get stuck because the Mac had a looser chamber (actually was that not mentioned in the Uzi talk thread that picutre was from? I have seen it before)? or a more finely polished chamber? We can't know. Not digging at Taurus but it does not take much in the way of a rough finish to make a casing stick in a chamber. I can not count the number of Ruger 22 chambers I have had to polish to increase reliability or even ease extraction in revolvers.
I would find the experience that you had with Tula ammo to be unacceptable. While you may have fired 1500 rounds without issue, when you did have an issue it was a significant pain and if your theory is correct could have damaged other guns more. I find 1 in 1500 to be unacceptable, given the fact I have a 5 gallon pail of brass 45 casings from this year with no failures like that.
I do suspect that it is a materials problem. No idea if they anneal the cases after making them, if so maybe that one slipped through? Or it's a bad steel lot, or a heavy charge? Either way this should not happen, and there should be enough of a safety margin / fudge factor or QC that this does to happen.
Given that the 45 acp is a rather low pressure round I would not be running to the store to buy some 40 S+W tula ammo........
Lastly when it comes to steel case ammo no one can convince me that it i a good idea to replace all of the brass on steel sliding / wear that occurs in a gun with steel on steel.
Evil Monkey
New member
Yes it was discussed. The reason i didn't mention that is because I have read instances way back regarding 45acp wolf splitting in semi auto PCC's and they kept cycling. I figured the loose chambered mac 10 was no more than a coincidence.
I can't prove this, but I think that steel case splits are "normal" for the Russian ammunition philosophy. It's no wonder they account for this problem with severely tapered cartridges. Western ammo is based on brass and the transition to steel can cause problems.
i still have the casing that split. it doesn't look bulged out much at all. But man was it a pain to get out. I remember taking out a small screw driver to pry the casing out with the rim and the screw driver bent.
I shoot alot of 40sw tula out of my M&P40. So far so good.......but you never know. From what I see, the 40sw case walls are thicker.
mike irwin said:
Your call. Around here we usually shoot at least 200 or 300 rounds per person every time we go to the range. 2 or 3 split cases per person (1%) would be considered much MORE than common, it would be considered unusual.
I consider it to be a common occurrence since I usually find one or two split cases among every several thousand pieces of brass being reloaded. Nobody bothers to pick up steel cases, I have no idea what their "split frequency" is.
A SEAL unit used to use our range for practice. Payment was that we got to keep the brass and ammo cans (then after several years they annexed the range and kicked us off!). We scrapped the machine gun brass (generous chambers, lots of stretch), and there were LOTS of splits in it, much more than 1%. We always figured it was because of the oversized MG chambers.
If your gun can't handle a split case, get a new gun.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"These came from a mac 10 and never got stuck, I assume due to the blow back operating system which does not involve a locked breach."
Exactly. A completely different scenario. That's exactly what I meant when I said "If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms" in a previous post.
"I said "usually". Meaning 9 times out of 10. It's not always the firearms fault, but the way it is built/designed certainly helps."
And I still think you're way off base. Going back to your original post, while not common, out of batter firing CAN certainly be an ammo problem if the primer is incorrectly seated. But what you're describing is NOT an out of battery firing, but a split that originated in the case wall well above the case head and is completely unrelated to whether or not the gun was in battery.
Chambers that are not fully supported have been in use for well over 100 years, and have shown to be a non-issue with properly loaded ammunition.
The case picture I lined above is a perfect example of an improperly loaded case (by me) blowing out in the unsupported part of the barrel.
Gun's fault? No.
The only recent issue where a gun with an unsupported barrel was truly the issue were the first generation Glock .40s with hot reloads. The unsupported part of the chamber was simply too large. It was generally fine with factory ammo, but with hot (but in book spec) reloads the case had a very high potential for failure -- the semi-legendary Glock Kaboom.
I personally witnessed several Glock KBs, and saw the aftermath of several others. All involved first gen .40s, and all but 1 involved hot reloads.
Exactly. A completely different scenario. That's exactly what I meant when I said "If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms" in a previous post.
"I said "usually". Meaning 9 times out of 10. It's not always the firearms fault, but the way it is built/designed certainly helps."
And I still think you're way off base. Going back to your original post, while not common, out of batter firing CAN certainly be an ammo problem if the primer is incorrectly seated. But what you're describing is NOT an out of battery firing, but a split that originated in the case wall well above the case head and is completely unrelated to whether or not the gun was in battery.
Chambers that are not fully supported have been in use for well over 100 years, and have shown to be a non-issue with properly loaded ammunition.
The case picture I lined above is a perfect example of an improperly loaded case (by me) blowing out in the unsupported part of the barrel.
Gun's fault? No.
The only recent issue where a gun with an unsupported barrel was truly the issue were the first generation Glock .40s with hot reloads. The unsupported part of the chamber was simply too large. It was generally fine with factory ammo, but with hot (but in book spec) reloads the case had a very high potential for failure -- the semi-legendary Glock Kaboom.
I personally witnessed several Glock KBs, and saw the aftermath of several others. All involved first gen .40s, and all but 1 involved hot reloads.
My understanding of the very tapered nature of the 7.62 x 39 mm case is due to steel not being as elastic as brass thus to ensure extraction. Not that the cases split that often.
I have shot a fair bit of steel case AK ammo of all sorts and have yet to have a split case of note --- I.e. that caused an issue so it got noticed. Not saying there was not one that happened and I did not notice, I am sure I have not looked at every AK case I ahve fired.
Any case that splits and spills burning powder in and around the chamber and case is likely going to be a pain to get out of the chamber.
I suspect the ruskies having made steel 7.62x39 for a number of decades have more perfected the case making than some other rounds, in addition the cross over to military contracts likely keeps quality up a little more than civilian rounds.
I also wonder how the old US Army steel case 45 acp ammo did? Yes we did this in WW II. I recall someone, I think Jeff Cooper mentioning that it had no issues other than having to put a slight amount of oil on the rounds in the mag to ensure cycling.
I have shot a fair bit of steel case AK ammo of all sorts and have yet to have a split case of note --- I.e. that caused an issue so it got noticed. Not saying there was not one that happened and I did not notice, I am sure I have not looked at every AK case I ahve fired.
Any case that splits and spills burning powder in and around the chamber and case is likely going to be a pain to get out of the chamber.
I suspect the ruskies having made steel 7.62x39 for a number of decades have more perfected the case making than some other rounds, in addition the cross over to military contracts likely keeps quality up a little more than civilian rounds.
I also wonder how the old US Army steel case 45 acp ammo did? Yes we did this in WW II. I recall someone, I think Jeff Cooper mentioning that it had no issues other than having to put a slight amount of oil on the rounds in the mag to ensure cycling.
Evil Monkey
New member
I've had case few splits with wolf 7.62x39mm in my wasr10 ak. The only way I found out was because I picked up some casings from the ground. They never got stuck.
I've had one tula 223 case split in my AR. Took a steel rod to knock it out because the extractor broke the rim right off.
I've had one tula 223 case split in my AR. Took a steel rod to knock it out because the extractor broke the rim right off.
You should seriously consider shooting higher quality ammunition.
Steel cases are used because it's FAR cheaper than brass. Harder on the manufacturing tooling but tons cheaper in the long run.
A split case is case failure. It can fail for any number of reasons. Poor choice of material, loose manufacturing tolerances, poor design allowing too thin of a case, over pressure charge, oversize bullet, oversize chamber, firing out of battery, and the list goes on.
Judging by the number of case failures I must say that the quality control at the manufacturing level is suspect at best. They are not inspecting the raw material with tight enough standards or frequency. The vendor is obviously giving them substandard material and they are running it through the plant. Naturally, this assumes that the design of the case and production tolerances are acceptable.
They don't care if it blows the fingers off a shooter's hand, sends a thousand dollar gun high order, or simply goes bang. They got that American dollar and plan on taking more.
Not only am I an avid sport shooter, I'm also a quality control expert at a manufacturing level.
I'll keep as much of my money as possible in this country.
I guess that makes me an idiot. durrr...
Steel cases are used because it's FAR cheaper than brass. Harder on the manufacturing tooling but tons cheaper in the long run.
A split case is case failure. It can fail for any number of reasons. Poor choice of material, loose manufacturing tolerances, poor design allowing too thin of a case, over pressure charge, oversize bullet, oversize chamber, firing out of battery, and the list goes on.
Judging by the number of case failures I must say that the quality control at the manufacturing level is suspect at best. They are not inspecting the raw material with tight enough standards or frequency. The vendor is obviously giving them substandard material and they are running it through the plant. Naturally, this assumes that the design of the case and production tolerances are acceptable.
They don't care if it blows the fingers off a shooter's hand, sends a thousand dollar gun high order, or simply goes bang. They got that American dollar and plan on taking more.
Not only am I an avid sport shooter, I'm also a quality control expert at a manufacturing level.
I'll keep as much of my money as possible in this country.
I guess that makes me an idiot. durrr...
polyphemus
New member
Believe or not I get in trouble all the time for saying things like that.
You are not an idiot.
polyphemus
New member
In the rare instance I get one of those instead of calling a lawyer I figure Nature is trying to tell me something so I toss it in the scrap bin.
Evil Monkey
New member
I don't they can do anything. This is the nature of steel casings. This is why I believe the Russian standardized military ammunition is designed with parameters that account for the problems encountered with steel as a casing material.
Western standardized ammo is not designed around steel as a case material.
On another note, you guys realize there is no tula or wolf 40sw available anymore? Every website is completely out except for 45acp and 9mm.
Something is going on.
That is NOT the nature of steel casings. That is the nature of loose design tolerances, poor quality control, and suspect material being used.
IT'S CHEAP AMMO. Designed cheap. Built cheap. They can't make the same money if they tighten up design, use better steels, and thicker walled cases.
It's all about the money.
Hornady makes steel cased ammo using higher quality materials, proper design, and strict quality control. It does not have the case failure rate as the cheap import junk. It's made for the IDPA, three gun, and other competitors who choose buying ammo over loading it.
Western ammo is generally far superior to the cheap imported stuff. Quality control, materials, and design are all much better. These companies are easily reached by lawyers so they have to make better stuff than the Russian and Chinese companies.
Could it be the import ban on Russian arms and ammunition? Everybody snapped up all that cheap junk. I, for one, don't miss seeing it on the shelf.
I'm a reloader and all the steel cases are good for is tossing in the scrap metal pile.
Evil Monkey
New member
You really can't do that with pistol cartridges. There's no room for thicker walls.
I'm pretty sure those Hornady casings are imported. It does not have a high failure rate because barely anybody shoots hornady.
What I meant to say was western ammo is based on brass and not steel. So the transition from brass to steel may cause problems.
There's no ban on ammo.
Uncle Malice
New member
What in the world are you talking about? Most modern cartridges have plenty of room for thicker walls. Very few get filled to the brim with powder... that's why it's possible to have them over/double charged causing the issues that we have been discussing in this thread. The 45acp uses barely half of the available space - hence the development of the 45GAP.
lol okay.
I don't know the source of their steel casings, but to say barely anybody shoots Hornady is laughable.
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