madmo44mag
New member
Some times coming to the dance late is more fun.
tula 45acp case wall blowout.....
- Thread starter Evil Monkey
- Start date
Evil Monkey
New member
It's more complicated than that. Take for example people with NFA full auto mac 10's. Some people have dozens of steel casings on the ground that are completely blown out, yet the weapon continues to operate. Go figure.....
A case wall blow out does not always constitute a massive failure. All pressure blew out through the barrel like it's supposed to. But if my pistol had an unsupported chamber like a glock 21 or fnp45, what do you think may have happened? What ever would have happened would be the same with brass cased ammo as well.
In my case, the ammo failed. But it only resulted in a stuck casing, not a destroyed weapon. Further more as stated earlier, you cant blame steel casings or tula for what happened. This is an issue with granularity in the casing material that cannot be QC'ed at the manufacturing facility and can happen with brass, aluminum, or steel.
I agree.
Beagle45ACP
New member
24 posts in and I'm still confused as to what this guy is trying to get at here.
jrobin3360
New member
Supported & unsupported chamber? Guess I'm not engineering knowledgeable. If a G21 has an unsupported chamber, does a 1911 have a supported chamber? Maybe Google will help me with this question.
I personally have nothing bad to say about steel case ammo. My SKS eats it like candy. Don't shoot it in anything else.
I personally have nothing bad to say about steel case ammo. My SKS eats it like candy. Don't shoot it in anything else.
Evil Monkey
New member
really? What part of 'it's not always the ammo's fault' do you not understand?
I've proposed multiple arguments on why ammo shouldn't always be blamed when things go wrong and yet you still don't get it.
I think some of you choose to be ignorant on purpose.
WildBill45
New member
SOME engineers are like this ... they know 100 ways to love a woman BUT, they don't have a girlfriend!!!
This is why the engineer builds the bat and the batter hits the balls! Two worlds, two skill sets, etc...
Chuck Yeager didn't design the aircraft, he just had the skills to fly and the courage to test, that changed the world!!!
Beagle45ACP
New member
The part where we needed a thread to discuss it.....
polyphemus
New member
Yes.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Sometimes during the manufacturing process of drawing the casing, I suspect the grain of the material is not ideal in some spots. As far as I know, there's no QC to deal with that. It happens with any material (brass, aluminum, steel) in any ammunition manufacturing facility."
I'm with you right here.
"If anything is to be held accountable, it's usually the firearm."
That's where you lose me.
The fault isn't the firearm, or case 'burn throughs' (as I call them) would be happening a LOT more frequently than just once every few thousand rounds, if that. A problem with the chamber bad enough to cause a case burn through would make itself known with just about every shot in the form or more case burn throughs, consistently difficult extraction (especially with brass), or misshapen brass.
The fact that it's apparently NOT happening means that you had a base case. Nothing more.
It's not the fault of the gun, it is, as you say, a flaw in the case that manifests itself during the drawing process. Some brass cases will stand up to multiple reloads before they suffer a burn through, others will burn through on the first firing out of a box of factory ammo.
"These handguns have limited engineering space. Corners, sometimes literally, have to be cut in order to attain certain requirements."
You don't think that happens in the manufacture of ammunition?
"I have never seen these issues with 9mm or 40sw. Or maybe I'm not looking hard enough."
I've had brass burn through in 9mm. In .45. In .38 Special. In .357 Magnum. In .22 Long Rifle (in both rifles and handguns). In .380. And in .44 Special.
I generally don't shoot steel-cased ammo (other than milsurp 7.62x39).
I'm with you right here.
"If anything is to be held accountable, it's usually the firearm."
That's where you lose me.
The fault isn't the firearm, or case 'burn throughs' (as I call them) would be happening a LOT more frequently than just once every few thousand rounds, if that. A problem with the chamber bad enough to cause a case burn through would make itself known with just about every shot in the form or more case burn throughs, consistently difficult extraction (especially with brass), or misshapen brass.
The fact that it's apparently NOT happening means that you had a base case. Nothing more.
It's not the fault of the gun, it is, as you say, a flaw in the case that manifests itself during the drawing process. Some brass cases will stand up to multiple reloads before they suffer a burn through, others will burn through on the first firing out of a box of factory ammo.
"These handguns have limited engineering space. Corners, sometimes literally, have to be cut in order to attain certain requirements."
You don't think that happens in the manufacture of ammunition?
"I have never seen these issues with 9mm or 40sw. Or maybe I'm not looking hard enough."
I've had brass burn through in 9mm. In .45. In .38 Special. In .357 Magnum. In .22 Long Rifle (in both rifles and handguns). In .380. And in .44 Special.
I generally don't shoot steel-cased ammo (other than milsurp 7.62x39).
Mike Irwin
Staff
Oh, and for everyone's edification?
Dial back the snark right now.
I don't like where this is headed, and when I don't like it, others quickly come to not like it.
Dial back the snark right now.
I don't like where this is headed, and when I don't like it, others quickly come to not like it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, I see a lot of imprecise terminology being bandied about here.
Evil Monkey, what you suffered was a case split that originated in the case body, most likely at the mouth.
That does not result in a "blown up" gun. If you had been shooting brass you very likely never would have noticed it at all.
A "blown up" gun
A FAR more serious issue is a blow out at the case head. This is almost always caused by some sort of overpressure, such as this one...
That was one of my handloads that I chumped -- pure user error. I was working on a new press and managed to double charge a case with WW 231. 9.8 grains, instead of 4.9 grains, makes one HELL of a fireball when you pull the trigger.
Even with that kind of abuse, the gun, a Springfield Mil Spec 1911-A1, was undamaged. I replaced the (completely trashed) magazine, cleared the case, made sure that the extractor was still in one piece, and went on shooting.
A case head rupture is possibly the most serious failure of all. It can be caused by an overload or a bad case, but if the split goes through the case head, it can cause real problems, especially in a high powered rifle.
I've seen one true case head split, apparently caused by the failure of a factory new case, and it absolutely destroyed a Remington 700.
"Some people have dozens of steel casings on the ground that are completely blown out, yet the weapon continues to operate."
This statement really means nothing, because we don't know HOW they are "blown out."
If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms.
Evil Monkey, what you suffered was a case split that originated in the case body, most likely at the mouth.
That does not result in a "blown up" gun. If you had been shooting brass you very likely never would have noticed it at all.
A "blown up" gun
A FAR more serious issue is a blow out at the case head. This is almost always caused by some sort of overpressure, such as this one...
That was one of my handloads that I chumped -- pure user error. I was working on a new press and managed to double charge a case with WW 231. 9.8 grains, instead of 4.9 grains, makes one HELL of a fireball when you pull the trigger.
Even with that kind of abuse, the gun, a Springfield Mil Spec 1911-A1, was undamaged. I replaced the (completely trashed) magazine, cleared the case, made sure that the extractor was still in one piece, and went on shooting.
A case head rupture is possibly the most serious failure of all. It can be caused by an overload or a bad case, but if the split goes through the case head, it can cause real problems, especially in a high powered rifle.
I've seen one true case head split, apparently caused by the failure of a factory new case, and it absolutely destroyed a Remington 700.
"Some people have dozens of steel casings on the ground that are completely blown out, yet the weapon continues to operate."
This statement really means nothing, because we don't know HOW they are "blown out."
If residual chamber pressure is high enough during the extraction cycle, case expansion can occur. This is seen in some blowback operated firearms.
Hi, Mike,
I can't read the headstamp on that case, but it looks very much like one of the many brands, mostly imports, that have almost a balloon head case, used to save case material, especially brass. Those are fine ordinarily (the Hungarian "Lake City" cases are made that way, and I have fired literally thousands of rounds with no problem) but a combination of high pressure in a reload, weak case support, and/or an OOB condition will pose greater danger of a blowout with that type of case head.
Hi, Evil Monkey,
I am sure we all want to learn, and I think it would help if you could provide us with the basis of your expertise in firearms and ammunition design and engineering. All of us like to think we could be gun designers*, but it is rare for a real expert to show up.
Jim
*It has been said that the only two jobs most guys think they could do with no training, experience, or knowledge are movie actor and President of the United States.
JK
I can't read the headstamp on that case, but it looks very much like one of the many brands, mostly imports, that have almost a balloon head case, used to save case material, especially brass. Those are fine ordinarily (the Hungarian "Lake City" cases are made that way, and I have fired literally thousands of rounds with no problem) but a combination of high pressure in a reload, weak case support, and/or an OOB condition will pose greater danger of a blowout with that type of case head.
Hi, Evil Monkey,
I am sure we all want to learn, and I think it would help if you could provide us with the basis of your expertise in firearms and ammunition design and engineering. All of us like to think we could be gun designers*, but it is rare for a real expert to show up.
Jim
*It has been said that the only two jobs most guys think they could do with no training, experience, or knowledge are movie actor and President of the United States.
JK
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I can't read the headstamp on that case, but it looks very much like one of the many brands, mostly imports, that have almost a balloon head case, used to save case material, especially brass."
Nope. Solid head. I THINK it was a Remington case, but after so many years I'm not so sure.
I'll have to find it and see.
Nope. Solid head. I THINK it was a Remington case, but after so many years I'm not so sure.
I'll have to find it and see.
Evil Monkey, I guess I'm a bit lost now with this thread. If your catastrophic failure was neither due to faulty ammunition or faulty firearm design, what ultimately caused the case to rupture???
It sounds as if you chalk it up to faulty metallurgy perhaps? Wouldn't that be the fault of the ammunition manufacturer since they are producing the cases?
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just one of those"range retards" that did not attend MIT and get my PhD in firearms engineering and design.
It sounds as if you chalk it up to faulty metallurgy perhaps? Wouldn't that be the fault of the ammunition manufacturer since they are producing the cases?
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just one of those"range retards" that did not attend MIT and get my PhD in firearms engineering and design.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Could have been the fault of the foundry that created the steel mix. One of those random things that just happens that simply cannot be prevented.
Could be that the gun has an oversized chamber, either at the very top or slightly over the allowable tolerance. 99.999% of the brass or steel cases will still be able to stretch enough to accommodate it without splitting. However, that 1 case in 10,000 that is at the very edge of the small case tolerance range will not be able to stretch enough and will split.
Splits are a very common occurrence, happens all the time on brass cases that have been loaded multiple times and have work hardened from stretching and being resized. Doesn't affect anything. No different than shooting a muzzleloader as long as the head remains intact.
Only critical part of the case is the head, which is an integral part of the chamber seal. Only function of the case wall is to hold the powder and bullet in place until the powder lights. Several years ago we tested .223 which used a brass head with a plastic case wall.
http://imgur.com/gallery/8qJXRnP
I figure that if plastic is good enough, pretty much any type of metal (steel, brass, aluminum) is overkill!
Splits are a very common occurrence, happens all the time on brass cases that have been loaded multiple times and have work hardened from stretching and being resized. Doesn't affect anything. No different than shooting a muzzleloader as long as the head remains intact.
Only critical part of the case is the head, which is an integral part of the chamber seal. Only function of the case wall is to hold the powder and bullet in place until the powder lights. Several years ago we tested .223 which used a brass head with a plastic case wall.
http://imgur.com/gallery/8qJXRnP
I figure that if plastic is good enough, pretty much any type of metal (steel, brass, aluminum) is overkill!
Mosin-Marauder
New member
I love steel cased ammo 
.
.Mike Irwin
Staff
"Splits are a very common occurrence, happens all the time on brass cases that have been loaded multiple times and have work hardened from stretching and being resized."
I would say that it's not nearly as common as it seems you're saying.
I've got a couple hundred .45 ACP cases that have seen as many as 30 reloadings, and my split loss has been fewer than dozen.
I have some .38 Special cases that are very likely approaching 70 reloadings, and the split loss has been maybe 1 percent.
You are correct, though, that the resizing process can contribute to this. Revolver rounds are especially prone to it if they're heavily roll crimped.
I would say that it's not nearly as common as it seems you're saying.
I've got a couple hundred .45 ACP cases that have seen as many as 30 reloadings, and my split loss has been fewer than dozen.
I have some .38 Special cases that are very likely approaching 70 reloadings, and the split loss has been maybe 1 percent.
You are correct, though, that the resizing process can contribute to this. Revolver rounds are especially prone to it if they're heavily roll crimped.
