Trying to size 7.62x51

Well everyone,
This is phase two of my
Attempt to resize the
7.62x. 51 wcc / WMA
Brass.
I purchase a new redding
308 small based FL die and
For the hell of it, an rcbs
308 full sizing die.

Ran the unsized brass through
My new rcbs die.
No change. Adjust it down
A little more, run it down
Again. No change.
Still sticks up passed max
On Wilson gauge.
Also, very tight in 308 savage
Chamber. Last 1/4 in I have
To press it.
Length is 2.0045
Headspace 1.636
Now take that piece of brass
And put it through my
Redding small bass die
Lube it up good. Adjusted
As specified.
No change
Brass will not go below
Max of Wilson gauge
Headspace reads 1.636
Max is 1.634 from datum

If I adjust die down to much
It pushes shoulder in, big dent
Back off a little, no change.

I guess it just springs back
Also the cases that I put through
The small die that's makes the small
Dimple on the neck reads 1.630 and
Chambers in 308 OK.
It will form to chamber when fired.
 
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I have some WCC 10 brass sitting here which head to datum on shoulder measures 1.640 to 1.645 so my guess is this stuff likely went through a machine gun. Hell, to get these cases in a Wilson or Forrester case gauge is a project unto itself telling me at the base the case diameter is well beyond SAAMI specifications. That said I can run this stuff, as oversize as it is through any of several .308 Winchester sizing dies I have and the brass resizes fine. That includes chambering just fine in any of several .308 Winchester or 7.62 x 51 NATO chambers I have and that is without using a small base die.

Reading through this thread I can't figure out what is not working for you. You have tried several sets of dies including small base dies and dies from a few manufacturers. I can't figure out what is being missed but we are missing something here. You have even tried a shim in the shell holder. Have you tried more than one shell holder? There are only so many possibles which could be wrong and you have hit on just about all of them. I know this is frustrating but hang in there.

I see Long Island? Give my regards to Long Island, I grew up in Uniondale many, many years ago. :)

Ron
 
Ran the unsized brass through
My new rcbs die.
No change. Adjust it down
A little more, run it down
Again. No change.
Still sticks up passed max
On Wilson gauge.
Also, very tight in 308 savage
Chamber. Last 1/4 in I have
To press it.
Length is 2.0045
Headspace 1.636
Now take that piece of brass
And put it through my
Redding small bass die
Lube it up good. Adjusted
As specified.
No change
Brass will not go below
Max of Wilson gauge
Headspace reads 1.636
Max is 1.634 from datum
Click to expand...

If I adjust the die to size a case to minimum length/full length my press sizes the case to minimum length. If my press fails to size the case there will be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. And if I use too much lube I get dents on the shoulder. I have small base dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case.

The small base die does not size the base of the case, the shell holder with a deck height of .125" prevents the base of the case from getting sized, meaning the base of the die is small. I am not the fan of reloaders talking new reloaders into purchasing tools they do not need.

F. Guffey
 
Reloadron,guffey
I was really hoping someone
Would spot what I missed.
I watch YouTube videos
Of someone resizing ,trimming
7.62 brass and I can see the same
Dents from a MG as my brass.
I really thought that a new full length
Die and small base die would do it.
I am so confused by this.
Is annealing the answer ?

I just want to understand this.
Don't care about brass, dies etc.

I measure the 7.62 Brass I fired in my
Rifle.
It measures 1.624 with hornady headspace
Gauge.
It seems so easy for people to buy one fired military brass process it and
No issues.
 
The only thing I haven't changed
Is the #2 Lee shell holder

I'm the morning I'm just for
Fun I'm going to heat
A case up really hot , dump
It in cold water then try resizing ?
 
The only thing I haven't changed
Is the #2 Lee shell holder

I'm the morning I'm just for
Fun I'm going to heat
A case up really hot , dump
It in cold water then try resizing ?
Click to expand...

Not a good idea. Annealing a case neck is one thing but annealing an entire case, not so much. You don't want to do that. I can't imagine brass with a spring back as much as what it would need in this case. I took a few pieces of the brass I mentioned earlier, the WCC 10 which is about 1.640" to 1.645" and resized it. I just used a generic RCBS resizing die, not small base or anything special. I know from past experience that all I need is run the die down till it bumps the shell holder and snug it. This gives me 1.630" brass as measured with my RCBS Precision Mic set.If I add 1/8 turn not too bad but adding 1/4 turn will buckle the shoulders and make ugly brass. I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter.

Anyway, if you just want to anneal a case neck or two using a blow torch have at it but do not toast an entire case. A simple Google of "annealing case necks" should give some simple examples of using a propane torch and annealing the necks. I would look at trying a different shell holder too. While I have never seen a bad shell holder I would not rule it out.

Ron
 
Might be the shellholder

I like a lot of Lee products.
Not their shellhoders.
Lee makes 25 shellholder sizes. And their chart indicates "x or y" for certain calibers, and I saw one that gave two #'s with notations for "snug" and "loose". My point is that they like to make fewer generic sizes, that fit "well enough".
http://leeprecision.com/universal-press-shell-holders.html
I have decided "well enough" is not good enough for me, and I order Redding (if on sale), RCBS, or Lyman shell holders (usually as spares, for different presses, in different places), of the specific size for my calibers. RCBS has 56 different basic single stage shellholder sizes.
7.62/308 is one of the calibers where I have 3 - 4 different brands of shell holders. The Lee one might get used for priming. IIRC, years ago, the Lee ripped the rim off some LC while sizing. Redding has closer tolerances and no shell wobble. I always seem to have noticeable wobble in Lee shell holders.
 
I know from past experience that all I need is run the die down till it bumps the shell holder and snug it. This gives me 1.630" brass as measured with my RCBS Precision Mic set.If I add 1/8 turn not too bad but adding 1/4 turn will buckle the shoulders and make ugly brass. I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter
Click to expand...

You should get your money back from the die manufacturer. There is no way a standard/precision set of dies from RCBS can buckle a 308 case and or a 7.62 NATO case. NOW! if by mistake you picked up a 30/06 case and slid it into the shell holder and then raised the ram you can count on it. I use forming dies when going from 30/06 to 308W and then it is necessary to use a full length sizing die.

A full length sizing die can not shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head more than minimum length. By design the distance from the shoulder of the case to the deck of the shell holder is limited by the contact between the deck of the shell holder and shoulder of the die. And I suggest you measure the deck height of the shell holder; the deck height of my shell holders is .125".

I verify dies and shell holders' when verifying the 308 W die and shell holder I place a go-gage into the die with a shell holder. If I got my moneys worth when I purchased them I will have a .004" gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. I understand how difficult it is for many reloaders to accept the feeler gage. There are other options; a reloader with shop skills can measure the go-gage protrusion from the die; the protrusion should be .004", that leaves the shell holder; all a shell holder can do is have a deck height of .125".

F. Guffey

So, we go back to 'too much lube'.

F. Guffey
 
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I never see any difference to speak of using my RCBS, Lee or Lyman shell holders. Just means they are close enough not to matter
Click to expand...

What is so difficult to understand about shell holders, the deck height should be .125". I have been told the manufacturer of the die and shell holder must match; it leaves me to believe no one has a height gage or has the skill to measure.

F. Guffey
 
I am very happy to report that my
Error was when I first started this thread
And it was suggested I anneal this
MG fired brass , unfortunately I
Just didn't heat the brass enough.
Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.
Now the brass fits below max on
Wilson gauge. Reads 1.624 to
1.628 in headspace gauge.
Also I used full length sizing die,
Not the small base die.
I have brass for along time now.
It was suggested in videos I watched
This morning that after a few firing and reloading, anneal the brass again to
Extend its life.
I'll have to set something up better
Then holding a drill up to a flame.
Maybe I'll go to home depot and buy
Map gas , it hotter cut my time down to
Ten sec ?
I definitely appreciate everyone's
Info . lots of go stuff in this thread.
As frustrating as it was I definitely
Learned a lot.
 

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OK, maybe "buckle" was a poor choice of words. The effect on the shoulders is a slight series of more like tiny divots when I run the die down more than normal. Similar to the effect you get exactly as mentioned with too much lube but only slight dimple effect. They are sized and can be loaded with the dimple effect blowing out on firing. The lube I am using is an RCBS aerosol can which is no longer made. Not the pump stuff but an actual aerosol can. Too bad they no longer market it.

All of this is here nor there with helping the original poster. This deep into the thread and so far we have no solution as to why his cases are not sizing? He has tried numerous dies with no changes. The dies have been run up and down with no changes. He has tried a shim under the case head in the shell holder with no change. So reading through all the post, what could cause his problem?

Ron
 
I am very happy to report that my
Error was when I first started this thread
And it was suggested I anneal this
MG fired brass , unfortunately I
Just didn't heat the brass enough.
Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.
Now the brass fits below max on
Wilson gauge. Reads 1.624 to
1.628 in headspace gauge.
Also I used full length sizing die,
Not the small base die.
I have brass for along time now.
It was suggested in videos I watched
This morning that after a few firing and reloading, anneal the brass again to
Extend its life.
I'll have to set something up better
Then holding a drill up to a flame.
Maybe I'll go to home depot and buy
Map gas , it hotter cut my time down to
Ten sec ?
I definitely appreciate everyone's
Info . lots of go stuff in this thread.
As frustrating as it was I definitely
Learned a lot.
Click to expand...

Yay! I never would have thought... You can try the MAPP gas as it is a much hotter burn. I am just glad your frustration is over. As I mentioned I have a mountain of this WCC 10 brass which averages 1.640" to 1.645" and it sizes just fine, actually good stuff. All is well with a happy ending. Yay!

Ron
 
Digging out my propane torch
I use for plumbing work around the house
I experimented with different times.
The brass fits in my drill fine
With 3/4 sticking out. Heating the
Brass with it turning in the flame
For 30 sec works. 10 sec 20 sec
Didn't work.
Click to expand...

I would suggest you proceed cautiously; I am not the fan of a new reloader being told 'all you gotta do is' when it comes to annealing. I would say you have violated all of my rules but with annealing very few soon to be annealer-s start with rules and factors.

F. Guffey
 
I've done a good amount of annealing and would have to say ANYTHING past 10sec in the flame over heated the brass to the point of being to soft . I use the same method as you and I've never had to heat past 8sec to reach the proper temp of 750* at the shoulder & neck .

On a side note . I have a 150ct lot of WCC-06 cases that were a tad hard to size from once fired but did size fine . They are some of my best shooting brass and have been loaded 10 times and annealed once .
 
Metal god , reloadron
The propane tank I had was
Almost empty so I think flame
Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer
To get it where it would resize.
With a stonger more intense
Flame think time will be shorter.
 
Could be. The case should never get visibly red and the flame should not flare yellowish. In either case you are oversoftening and weakening the brass. Indeed, if you find cases splitting in three to five firings, then you know you have over-softened it. Oversoftening may, however, enable easier forming of the stretched case by reducing the yield of the brass. In that case, you may find you need less heat applied in the future.
 
Could be. The case should never get visibly red and the flame should not flare yellowish. In either case you are oversoftening and weakening the brass. Indeed, if you find cases splitting in three to five firings, then you know you have over-softened it. Oversoftening may, however, enable easier forming of the stretched case by reducing the yield of the brass. In that case, you may find you need less heat applied in the future.
Click to expand...

And again I would say he is into some risky stuff. He has gone from having trouble sizing a case without knowing what the problem was/is or could be to annealing in less than two 14 days. When it comes to annealing it is not the neck and shoulder I am concerned with; it is the case head.

He placed the case into a socket with 3/4" protruding and then spun the case with an electric drill thinking that is all he is required to do and he believes that is all he needs to know.

F. Guffey
 
Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer
Click to expand...

I will assume the flame was week, an annealer person on this forum should be able to write a complete paragraph on those two short lines of information.

F. Guffey
 
The propane tank I had was
Almost empty so I think flame
Was really week and I had to
Keep the brass on longer
To get it where it would resize.
With a stonger more intense
Flame think time will be shorter.
Click to expand...

Annealing took me a little time to develop a technique that worked well for me. I started off with the pie pan method (took forever for large batches), tried the drill method (waste of time), and now it's just fingers and watching for oxidation. Goes much faster for me now, hold the brass by the case head, rotate the shoulder area through the flame, watch as the oxide color changes, drop into a steel bucket. Goes by quick now.

Jimro
 
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
Click to expand...

I went to the armory and found a M 3 grease gun, and then I asked what I had to do to carry one of those. The number one job was the General's driver; and then I asked if the general had drivers that had no interest in looking sharp all the time.

F. Guffey
 
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