Trying to size 7.62x51

Let me restate
The 7.62 brass that I resized several times
Will chamber in my 308, even though they
Are flush with top of headspace gauge.
7.62 brass that I put through the full length die with normal die setup
Are slightly above gauge.
Gauge with no shell in it , reads 2.015
With shell 2.025.
Can not chamber in ,308.
Click to expand...

I agree with T. O'Heir, you have allowed these reloaders to rush you into reloading with out a few basic skills. Take me for example, I understand if I lower the die 1/4 turn I have increased the presses ability to size a case by .017", and then if I crank it down an additional 1/2 turn I have increased the presses ability to over come the cases ability to size the case by .051". And remember when the die is crewed down and the case is not sized the top of the press gets further away from the bottom of the press you could call this movement stress, strain, deflection or abuse, then there is that other part; before lowering the ram the reloader should have the ability to determine if the press won or the case won; meaning I can measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die with a feeler gage. The feeler gage indicates to the shell holder did not make it to the bottom of the die, by how much? The case head protruding from the die should be .125" in the perfect world.

Problem: you did not measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before you started. I do not know what press you are using, there is a chance the press you are using does not have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

There are not many dies I do not have and I always feel like if the press I am using is not tuff enough I have another press that is hollering, "pick me, pick me!".

And then there is lube, I use a no name lube for those tuff to size cases, most of the time any ol lubeldo.

And not far from you is a member of this forum that is a bench rester, he is not far from exit 45 on the LIE and a little north.

F. Guffey
 
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I think I will be able to reload this
Brass several times without
Any problems ?
Click to expand...

That is quite likely, especially from a bolt action rifle where you don't get excessive brass working like in a semi-auto.

Jimro
 
Metal god
What I said was misleading
I was putting the feeler gauge
Same place you are placing it.
Thanks and it does affect the sizing of the brass.
 
Years ago I had a Moderator delete some of my responses regarding the use of the feeler gage, he said it was VooDoo reloading and I was going to get someone killed. I am in no hurry so I waited; as few months later an opportunity came up that would allow him to share his new found method of sizing and troubleshooting. He started out with it is no biggie, and he claimed he had been doing it forever.

When it comes to respect I believe he should earn it.

F. Guffey
 
F.guffey,
I am very aware of my limited
Experience, this is the reason why
I started reloading 308 with a 100
Rounds of new Winchester brass.
I had to do nothing to the brass except, run the
Brass through my load master progressive
Press.
Worked like a dream.
Love that press.
I know some people look down on
Lee.
I bought hornady 150 grain
Btsp interlock bullets to go with the
The new brass.
To be safe I double checked the 4064 powder with the Lee dipper against
My digital scale to make sure the
Grains are exact.
Triple checked my powder measure
To make certain powder amount is
Correct.
Also I started below the
Starting grains and worked up to 43.5
.5 grains above starting load.
The ammo fired flawlessly.

Now all I have to do is clean
Check length and neck size to reload
The 308 brass.

I have to say that videos , reading
Instructions, Lee loading manual and
Forums has advanced me to a level
In a much shorter time then would have been possible not long ago.
Do I have more to learn yep

The problem I encountered with the
Military brass has enabled to learn
Even more.

My rifle is chambered for 7.62x51
So I had been buying and firing
This ammo.
I understand the brass is thicker and less
Volume in cc , so powder load will
Be lower by several grains.
Also, I need to measure my headspace
In my rifle in preparation for hand loads
That are more tuned to my rifles
Chamber.
This is an advanced project.
 
I think you are getting a handle on it and that Firewrench44 called the brass problem out correctly. Brass can become a spring when it is heavily expanded, and like putting a set on any spring, you have to bend it past the point you would be over-resizing brass of normal size and hardness. There's nothing wrong with the Lee die. It just wasn't designed to handle this more extreme problem.

A small base die should handle it. It is also possible to have it roll sized to correct size if you don't want to buy the die. Case prep services can be found online that can do this, though they will probably take your brass in exchange for some they've already done.
 
Unclenick,
Next time I order
Reloading supplies
I am definitely adding a small
Based die. I have to work out
This issue with the brass to
Understand it and it's part of
The learning process.
Also, I believe firewrench44 was right
About the small based die.
This thread did provide alot of info.
Images and reference material from
Everyone.
 
Bought once fired 308 /7.62 brass, once. The particular lot bought was not worth the effort or time for one firing. It took multiple steps to get it sized down. Scrapped the lot, and learnt better.

Of course not all machine gun chambers are the exact same, but betting they are oversize to begin with.

Have found the RCBS small base dies can size the shoulder down from brass shot through excessive headspace chamber, while Redding's doesn't do as well.
 
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My rifle is chambered for 7.62x51
So I had been buying and firing
This ammo.
I understand the brass is thicker and less
Volume in cc , so powder load will
Be lower by several grains.
Also, I need to measure my headspace
In my rifle in preparation for hand loads
That are more tuned to my rifles
Chamber.
Click to expand...

You had a good start, your fired new over the counter ammo and you reloaded the cases and then fired your reloads. After firing the new over the counter ammo you should know the length of the chamber and you should know the diameter of the chamber.

If you were using a comparator instead of a 'case head space gage' you would know the amount of sizing required to chamber your military surplus cases. And then there is that part about the case being heavier and or thicker or both; no one measures, they heard someone at the pool hall talking about thicker because it is heavier and from the beginning that could be a half truth.

And then there are volume masters, they decide what is important. I have always said the length of the powder column and diameter of the powder column was a factor so if the they are half correct the 7.62 case head can have a thinner case head with a thicker case body and still be heavier.

My favorite? I like a case with a thick case head and thin case body. Problem, if the case is thicker from the cup above the web to the case head and then I hammer this case with a heavy load I could have a problem sizing the case head meaning under normal circumstance the case head should increase in diameter .00025". One more time: Who measures? I have found case heads that expanded .002":eek::eek:. If a reloader divided .00025" into .002" they would get 8. The 8 means the case head expanded 8 times greater during one firing than it should have.

I have small base dies, I have BAR dies, I have dies that are mistakes, the one thing I can not do with a die size the base of the case and the one thing reloaders do not understand about a small base die is the shell holder prevents the bottom .125" of the case can not be sized because of the deck height of the shell holder.

Back to thick case heads and upset, I have cases with .260" thick case heads, when I expand the thick case head I have trouble stuffing the case into the die. I like the thick case head because of case head protrusion and unsupported case head.

F. Guffey
 
First off, good on you for knowing this is the first step!
Excellent to see someone that doesn't think they have everything down pat because they saw a video on YouTube!

Second, good on you again for buying & learning how to use a HEADSPACE gauge!
The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.
The 'Crunch & Shoot' guys can crank out rounds that go 'Boom' and most times not much else...
When you can bend brass back into a given specification, that takes skill and a through working knowledge of how things ACTUALLY WORK.

Third, milbrass is MUCH harder than civilian brass!
It resists sizing, so a STOUT press is often required,
And 'Spring Back' will drive you crazy...

The best advice I can give as a commercial volume case reconditioner,
When it comes to these blown out, excessively hard cases is to ANNEAL the neck, and deep into the shoulder/side of the case on the first sizing.

Instead of a 'Plumbers' torch, try one of the smaller 'Jet' style torches intended for soldering electrical components, or even butane cigar lighters.
MUCH more accurate.
Once you have THROUGHLY annealed the neck/shoulder (about 730*F will anneal 7.62 milbrass, use temperature color change paint (thermochomactic) or infrared pyrometer),
A lighter annealing (above 650*F) every 3 or 4 loadings will keep that brass pliable, and make it live MUCH longer now you have put the work into it...

Electrical annealing is MUCH faster, easier & more accurate, but runs $500 to $1,000 for retail units, so for a few hundred cases a 'Crack Pipe' lighter is a good deal.

Keep in mind the hardest thing you will fight is the case 'Bloat' just above the case floor, a BUNCH of retail dies won't reach this area...
 
The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.
Click to expand...
That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.
They just need brass that fits their own gun.
 
See, the 'Crunch & Shoot' guys are everywhere...
Learned just enough to be dangerous & think they know it all...
They never just admit they can NOT make a specification case and be done with it...

The 'Best' way to get a 7.62 milbrass back into shape is a case roller & dies,
Cost prohibitive, about $1,500.
Takes a LOT of cases to justify one of these!

If you have a STOUT press, you *Can* get a .30-06 die, grind a little off the bottom & resize the sides/lower of the 7.62 brass.
The .30-06 die won't size neck or shoulder, you are only looking to get down far enough to push the 'Bloat' back in where it belongs.
I'm not trying to sell it as a 'Home Game', but it's worked before...
Use a SIZED brass, one that doesn't currently fit in the case gauge,
Keep taking a very little amount at a time off the bottom opening of the die until shell holder contact produces a brass that will fit in the case gauge.

Remember! When you push the bloat back in, the shoulder/neck will move forward making the case LONGER, so you WILL have to resize with 7.62 die between tries at the case gauge.

This is like removing the crimp, you will usually only have to do it upon initial processing.

One costly option, but cheaper than a case roller, is bushed competition dies.
Simply leave the shoulder/neck bushing out of the die & 'Bump' cases into shape.
Again, this isn't an option I care for since you *Might* have to grind some of the bottom of the die away to get what you want done accomplished...
That will pretty much ruin the die for anything else.
A $30 .30-06 die is acceptable, $230 competition die is not acceptable to me...
 
The hardest thing any common home reloader will do is learn to crank out a 'Specification' case/round.

That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.
They just need brass that fits their own gun.
Click to expand...

Snyper, I agree. Basic shop skills and a few tools and then there is that tendency to take off in a dead run, some would lead a new reloader grinding is the answer. I always ask: Grind where? and then there is Why?

I have never ground the top of a shell holder or bottom of a die because I have never found it necessary. I have found cases that had more resistance to sizing than my press, die and lube could overcome. And then there is that part about the top of the shell holder making it to the bottom of the die. Anyhow, the deck height of the shell holder is .0125". If a reloader can remove the die with the shell holder from the press and have the ability to measure case head protrusion they can determine if the case is sized because the case head will be protruding from the die .125".

But if they go to grinding on the shell holder and die they will not have a clue, and then they will require counseling.

F. Guffey
 
I think the only reason to make a specification round is if you are in the ammo manufacturing business.

Hence the reason why most "crunch and shoot" (why do I find that perjorative?) reloaders don't bother making specification rounds, just ammo that works in the firearms they need to feed.

Jimro
 
Reloaders only need to produce on-spec ammo when they are feeding more than one gun using the same cartridge, and they expect the ammo to be interchangeable.
 
Snyper said:
Reread my post.
Click to expand...

:confused:,
That's because most don't need to learn to make SAAMI spec ammo.
Click to expand...

Need to learn: I do what I can to prevent a new reloader from jumping into reloading in a dead run. I understand; reloaders have their favorite tools and most sentences start with "You have to have this tool or that tool", and like Randy Newman said; "No you don't, you don't gotta do nothing". The full length sizing die with a shell holder and press collectively have a design. The design is to produce minimum length/full length sized cases. Reloaders that have jumped into reloading in a dead run have no clue what minimum length/full length sized cases are; and that goes for the choir. The answer to failure to chamber is not 'grind the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die'.

I know; most are confused but if the reloader is not producing minimum length full length sized cases they should be able to determine why. And then there are threads. For the most part the reloader, old and new, is dealing with the 7/8 by 14 tpi; one turn is equal to .071428 and 1/4 turn is .01785. After that is the assumption the press is solid and does not flex and no one ask 'what press are you using?'.

I have cases that are tough to size, my tough to size cases have resistance to sizing; to size my tough to size cases my press must have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I am not hard headed, I know when the case wins.

And then there are those mean old machine gun fired 308/7.62 NATO cases.

F. Guffey
 
If you fire new cases in your own gun, with rare exceptions, a properly set up standard sizing die will resize it more than adequately. Most problems come from resizing cases someone else shot first.

When the DCM still existed, I collected a fair amount of .30-06 brass at their matches, but the brass policing was haphazard enough that I would get some cases that hadn't come from my gun. These were all from issued Lake City ammunition. But after I got them home, I found they would come out of my Redding resizing die with up to about 0.005" difference in head-to-shoulder length. If you throw machine gun fired cases into the mix, that number gets bigger.

For the above reasons, it isn't a bad idea to suggest new reloaders stick to brass that was fired for the first time in their chamber. Then, with rare exceptions, all they have to do to get working loads is follow book instructions until everything about the process becomes familiar. At that point they are then in a position to tackle special problems and that's a better time to start looking at once-fired brass.
 
Yeah, if someone had told me to either buy virgin brass or only reload ammo I'd shot through my rifle my learning curve would have been a tad shallower. But you gotta learn at some point, and it is much easier not to get good information on how to reload milsurp brass than at any other point in history.

Jimro
 
Purchasing brass; my favorite brass is brass shot in someone else's rifle with a trashy old chamber. Manufacturers will not sell cases that are too long from the shoulder to the case head to reloaders that know what they are doing. That leaves me to purchase once fired cases that will not chamber in my rifles. I know, most are confused but I find it difficult to move the shoulder, I do not have a problem decreasing the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head; I do have a problem with moving the shoulder.

Again, I have spent time at the firing range measuring the length of cases from the shoulder to the case head. At the time I paid 8¢ each with 10 free cases if I purchased 100 cases.

And then there is my trashy old M1917, the chamber in my Eddystone is .002" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a field reject length gage; for me that is not a problem, I use 280 Remington cases that are longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a 30/06 case. The difference between the two lengths is .051"; and I ask how; how canI miss?

F. Guffey
 
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