The statute very clearly uses the term "probable cause". That is not at all the same as "substantial evidence".But unless there is substantial physical or witness evidence that the shooting was wrongful there will be no arrest or detainment in custody.
Where on earth do you get your description "as in most states"?Attempt to clarify.
Police here may not use the fact a shooting has occurred as probable cause to arrest as in most states and then up to the defender to prove hexes justifed up the legal pipeline.
There will be some evidence to indicate the shoot was wrongful or no arrest detainment or prosecution will occur.
The fact there was a shooting here is not enough for probable cause as in the majority of states.
Again, substantial evidence isn't the standard under the statute. The test is probable cause, and that is a different legal standard.Ghost1958 said:....But unless there is substantial physical or witness evidence that the shooting was wrongful there will be no arrest or detainment in custody....
The reality is that I have much greater knowledge of law than you do. I'm a lawyer with 30+ years experience practicing before retiring ten years ago. I know how to read statutes and do the legal research. And during the course of my practice I've had occasion to deal with the laws of many State, as well as federal law, because I've had clients with interests and dealings in many States.Ghost1958 said:...But I will now to your greater knowledge of KY law and how it is applied as gleaned from California....
Really? And you know this how? Can you cite case law (decisions of appellate courts) supporting that?Ghost1958 said:...Police here may not use the fact a shooting has occurred as probable cause to arrest as in most states and then up to the defender to prove hexes justifed up the legal pipeline.
There will be some evidence to indicate the shoot was wrongful or no arrest detainment or prosecution will occur.
The fact there was a shooting here is not enough for probable cause as in the majority of states. ...
...Self-defense is all-or-nothing. In order to establish it, the client has to admit being at the crime scene, with a weapon, which he or she used to intentionally harm the aggressor. The client has to admit that he injured the aggressor. The client has to convince the jury that if a reasonable person had been standing in his shoes, the reasonable person would have done the same thing. In effect, the aggressor invited his fate by threatening or inflicting serious bodily harm, or by threatening to kill the client.
In one fell swoop, the client has given up alibi and mistaken identity defenses. He or she has given up any claim that the wound was made by accident. Generally, the client must give up provocation (heat of passion or extreme emotional disturbance). Logically, provocation implies an unreasonable response to a situation, and mitigates murder to manslaughter. Self-defense implies a rational response to a very dangerous situation and, if successful, results in an acquittal. Similarly, the client must give up claims of mental illness or insanity and defenses based on intoxication or drug use....
What hogwash.Ghost1958 said:...Real example from last summer in my area.
Two men have an argument and verbal threats are exchanged then they part company. Both know the other is armed.
20 min later they encounter each other on a rural road. One shoots the other putting him in the hospital for a month. Claims self defense because of previous threats and knowledge the other was armed.
The man shot claims he was going past the shooters drive where the shooting occurred to visit another person on the same street.
Neither man was ever charged or detained nor arrested because SD claim could not be disputed by evidence and was legally reasonable here. ....
Cite evidence supporting that contention.Ghost1958 said:...In short, in a majority of states the fact there was a shooting, unless it is cut and dried unquestionably SD the defender will automatically be arrested and it's up to him to then prove the shoot was justified. ..
Cite legal authority (appellate court decisions) supporting that contention.Ghost1958 said:...In KY and a few other states the fact there was a shooting does not give LE probable cause to arrest and prohibits it by law if a SD claim is made....
Cite legal authority (appellate court decisions) supporting that contention.Ghost1958 said:...It's then on LE to provide evidence that the shooting was wrongful to have probable cause to detain or arrest.
Lacking that any detainment or arrest is prohibited by statute and actionable against the officers doing so....
No. In all states (except perhaps Ohio, where it gets a little complicated), the state must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.In short, in a majority of states the fact there was a shooting, unless it is cut and dried unquestionably SD the defender will automatically be arrested and it's up to him to then prove the shoot was justified.
You are mixing two things.In KY...the fact there was a shooting does not give LE probable cause to arrest and prohibits it by law if a SD claim is made.
Yep. Fourth Amendment. Applies in all states.It's then on LE to provide evidence that the shooting was wrongful to have probable cause to detain or arrest. Lacking that any detainment or arrest is prohibited by statute and actionable against the officers doing so.
stephen426 said:I hate to say it, but you guys are way of topic. While I understand it is important to separate opinions from verifiable facts, two mods picking apart a senior member's comments is not what I believe TFL is about. We are not dispensing legal advice and a simple disclaimer stating as much should be sufficient.
While I understand it is important to separate opinions from verifiable facts, two mods picking apart a senior member's comments is not what I believe TFL is about.
Yes, the discussion has strayed from the subject of realistic training.I hate to say it, but you guys are way of topic.
The point here is that misunderstandings involving the justification of lawful use of force can lead other readers to accept and believe things that are not true, with very bad effects.While I understand it is important to separate opinions from verifiable facts, two mods picking apart a senior member's comments is not what I believe TFL is about.
It goes without saying that one cannot provide legal advice on the basis of abstract and hypothetical discussions, and that legal advice can be provided only by one's attorney.We are not dispensing legal advice and a simple disclaimer stating as much should be sufficient.
...What I would like to know is whether there are any classes or systems where the concepts and equipment from paintball and/or laser-tag have been adapted to create a training class in which the targets can (literally, but non-lethally) "shoot back"?
Yes indeed--good input.Regardless of how realistic the training is, I still believe there is a degree of "this is still training" so the fear and adrenaline is not the same. Hopefully, with enough training and trigger time, muscle memory develops, we fall back on our training and adrenaline works in our favor.
No. The guns must be specially modified:stephen426 said:...Can simunition rounds be fired out of most guns (does it have the power to cycle the slide of most semi-auto guns) or does some kind of modification need to be done (Special barrel and weaker springs)....
...The Simunition® conversion kit, conversion bolt, bolt carrier assembly and safety-ring insert allow the FX® Marking Cartridges and the SecuriBlank® to be fired safely from the user’s own service weapon. These easy-to-install kits help preclude the inadvertent chambering of live ammunition and ensure the proper operation and cycling of the weapons. They are an integral part of the FX® training system along with the FX® marking cartridges and the FX® protective equipment....
That's true to a point. But having done a bit of simulator and force-on-force training it's been my experience that there is an adrenaline factor.=stephen426 said:...Regardless of how realistic the training is, I still believe there is a degree of "this is still training" so the fear and adrenaline is not the same....