True stopping power of a .380

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd bet that 99% of the time if you rattle off three or four .380s into someone's mid-section, theyre going to go down.
Click to expand...

In many cases where multiple shots are fired, only one or two solid hits are ever obtained. You're more likely to miss than hit. A shooter who hits his attacker one or two times out of a volley of several shots is doing very well indeed!

Remember, a criminal is going to chose a time and place that's advantageous to him, not you. This is possibly why a good guy fires many shots, but may not hit his target or may hit the target only once or twice.

That said, my wife's personal defense gun is a Beretta M85 .380 ACP. It is loaded with Hornady XTP-JHP cartridges, which attain a velocity of 1000+ fps out of her gun, and expands and fragments in bare and denim covered gelatin, while at the same time achieving a penetration depth of about 12 inches.
 
Personally I am always somewhat skeptical of people who make claims about such and such caliber being wimpy, the attacker will walk right through it, etc, etc. I guess it just always strikes me as being a bit like an "armchair commando". The .380 may not have as high a probability of incapacitating as would something like a .45, but it is a pretty academic argument as far as I am concerned. The .380 has dispatched plenty of unpleasant sorts in the past. If you are comfortable with the gun, I think that is the most important consideration, since that will influence how well you shoot, and that variable is more important than any of the expansion, penetration, and velocity data people like to talk about.
 
.380 underpowered?

I don't think so. My first semi-auto was given to me by a retired cop over 25 years ago. He said the gun had actually been used in a homicide, a one shot stop, and it was a little .25 caliber. The cops were on a stake out watching for a drug deal and actually witnessed the shooting. It happened unexpectedly at extremely close range, a shot straight to the heart. So, I guess your .380 ought to be at least as effective, provided you place your shots well.
 
W. R. is right on target.

There's a story about a man who was able to kill two elephants with two shots (one shot apiece) with a .22 rifle.

There are other stories about lions being shot multiple times with .458 Win Mags and still getting their teeth into the shooter.

Bottom line--If you can't put 'em where you want 'em, you can't stop 'em with an elephant gun. If you can, even a .22 is enough.

My guess is that more people have been killed because they were carrying a gun that they weren't comfortable with, or couldn't shoot well (read--was more powerful than they could handle) than have ever died because the cartridge their gun fired didn't have enough "stopping power".


Bottom line? A couple of hundredths of an inch more muzzle diameter won't make a magical difference on the target.
 
.380 Stopping power

If any cartridge will push a bullet in excess of 450FPS, it is capable of lethality on a human target or less. A .380 will do it if the shooter does his or her part. If a well-placed .22 will do it, then logic dictates that a well placed .380 will too.
 
Another consideration as mentioned above is that the .380 by design has a LOT of recoil for very little power.
You would find that a compact 9mm will have LESS RECOIL as well as much more power.

Having a gun that goes bang every time and hits what you aim at is the most important though. If your .380 is small, you carry it all the time, it is very reliable and you hit with it...well, what else do you really need %99.9 of the time?
 
The problem with the .380 is that you can pack a 9mm+P in the same size pistol, so why mess with the .380? A Kahr MK9 is smaller than a Walther PPK and a Kahr K9 about the same size.

Most .380's if not all, are blowback, while 9mm's are locked breach, so there is actually less felt recoil in a 9mm.

I really see no advantage at all in a .380. It is essentially obsolete. A modern .32 is almost as good and the P32 or NA can be totally concealed. And a modern 9mm can now be fit in a package even smaller than a blowback .380. So what is the point in a .380? Unless, of course, you already have one. But I would never buy a new one.
 
As to the size argument, I don't know of any 9mms as small as the new NAA Guardian .380 This gun is easily "pocket concealable, and I have friends that I work with who have qualified w/ the .32 model.

The thought that the 9mm is underpowered is a joke also. With the right load, I prefer Pro-Load 124gr+P, I have no doubt that my G17 will do its job. I switched from the .40Auto two years ago, and haven't looked back. The 9mm is cheaper to train with, and allows faster follow up shots.

I am seriously considering the Guardian .380 as a back-up. I wold feel comfortable carrying this, if that was all I had room to carry. Premium ammo and shot placement will end the majority of shoot situations.

Be Safe
Mike
 
Ok, my turn to respond

The first thing I want to do is thank everybody who responded (and who will continue to respond) for their opinions. I can finally see the light. Well, at least I have batteries for the light now!

A little piece of information: I use steel cored bullets. This may skew some of your opinions of about the inability of .380 to penetrate.

Here are my opinions about your opinions:

Ok. I don't quite understand what a few of you guys are saying about the .380 having more, or even close to the same amount of recoil as a 9mm. I shot a 9mm and thought it had a lot of recoil and then I shot a .380 and it has considerably less. That was one of my deciding criteria. I am a small person and shot 25 rounds in sucession of 9mm and my wrist began to hurt, whereas I shot 30 rounds of .380 and I was smiling from ear to ear wanting to shoot more. I also shot much more accuratly with the .380, and since you say shot placement is key, I must have made the correct choice. I don't see where anybody I know (in person) would say .380 is close to 9mm in recoil, I would have to say that it feels like 9mm has twice the recoil.

It appears to me that from what just about everybody will agree on, is that shot placement is more important than shot size.

I don't agree that .380 will ever be obsolete. When will an ideal weapon size for concealed carry, coupled with low recoil, be obsolete? Yes, you can find small 9mm guns for concealed carry. Who wants to pay 500 bucks for a compact 9mm, when you can get a regular size, for lack of a better term, .380 which will just about do the same amount of damage as a 9mm unless you're trying to drop an F-15, for under 200 bucks?!?!! Obsolete? Nah. They wouldn't be selling like hotcakes and being produced in large quantities if they are obsolete. My only question was in the knockdown power. I can't find anybody that says the caliber is obsolete. I refuse to spend enough $$$ to buy 2 or 3 .380 guns for the price of one 9mm. All in all I feel a few words spoken in the correct tone of voice will turn an intruder around quicker than the shot from a .50 caliber:

YOU HAVE TWO CHOICES. YOU CAN LEAVE NOW AND LIVE, OR OPEN THAT DOOR AND FIND OUT IF I HAVE BEEN PRACTICING ENOUGH AT THE GUN RANGE. TAKE YOUR CHOICE.

If he is in your house:

I DON'T AGREE WITH THE LAW THAT SAYS I CAN'T SHOOT YOUR ASS FOR JUST BEING IN MY HOUSE. (simple, isn't it?)

I do feel using something other than I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR ASS will do the job, and quite possibly ensure that you don't have to use your gun to actually kill someone.

Thanks again for the responses!
 
380 recoiling more than 9mm

Brandon I think I understand where the people who say the 380 recoils more than the 9mm are coming from. It depends entirely on the gun. I have a very small EAA 380, blow back design, and let me tell you it HURTS to shoot it. Even after only 15 or 20 rounds that gun bruises the web between my thumb and first finger. Small 9mm's don't do that. Fortunately not all 380's are created equally. My wife has a Taurus 380 - just about the biggest 380 on the planet I think - and it's a breeze to shoot and has considerably less recoil than the much larger Taurus/Beretta 92 series 9mm's or even S&W 6906 compact 9mm. These are about the two extremes for the 380 caliber, so finding where within that range works for you is what counts, and it sounds like you've found something that works for you.
 
On the topic of different recoils, I can attest that this is true.

If you take a colt government 380 (locked breach) and a ppk/s or md84 (blowback) to the range. With the same reloads, recoil on the gov380 is nearly none-existant. Like shooting a little ruger 22.

On the other hand, I would gladly pound full loads of 10mm out of my glock over having to put the same number of reloads down the ppk/s or md84. The blowback frankly hurts after about 500 rnds in a day.
 
Well I was gonna say just be sure to use FMJ, Steel core will do. But if Shawn Dodson (my hero) says his wife uses Hornady XTP, at 1000+fps. I'd use those, if your gun can achieve the same ballistics. I thought I recalled his website saying to stick to FMJ with the .380 ... but oh you should be served well with the Steel core rounds.
If you're accurate with it, use it. If you wanna save money and stick with the .380 that's your choice, however, I'd recommend using the biggest bullet you can shoot accurately. The .380 might do the job, but the stories I've heard seem to say that when you're in a self defense situation, you wish you had a tactical nuclear weapon.

-Morgan
 
According to the logic the cop gave you for proclaiming the .380 as too weak, was he able to provide you with a caliber or gun that would have 100% stops if you shot the bad guy several times? No, of course not. There isn't one that you can carry. If you want absolute guarenteed knock down power that works every time you put a shot on center mass, then you need a gun with the brand name of something like Howitzer in a mobile artillery configuration. Pick any caliber you want in handguns and you can find stories of failures to stop even though multiple shots were landed on target.

The smaller and less powerful the round being fired, the more accurate your shots need to be in order to hit vital organs and blood vessels. Larger and more powerful calibers, because they do more damage and tend to penetrate deeper, still need to be on target, but are more likely to be successful simply because they do more damage by making a bigger hole and/or penetrating through more tissue, organs, and blood vessels.
 
IMNSLE

I have discovered that in the real world even bad guys prefer not to be shot with ANY caliber.

If you place a bullet correctly action WILL cease. Think "ear gun"....
 
.380 vs 12 ga Shotgun

A few years ago a Bridgewater, NJ detective was shot by a BG wielding a 12 ga shotgun, certainly a weapon known to stop fights. As the LEO went down he pulled out his .380 and planted 1 shot in the BG's head.

The LEO recovered and was awarded a medal. The BG is currently pushing up daisys.

Hits count but good hits count more.
 
A couple of comments.

First, there are some .380's with a locked breech, most notably the Colt Mustang series and as you'd expect the recoil from these guns is negligible.
Secondly, there are no 9mm's anywhere near as small as the smaller .380's. It might make sense to opt for a 9mm over a large .380 but when you start looking at the smaller pieces and comparing... the .380 wins hands down.

I'm not going to defend the .380 on ballistic grounds. We all know we're getting into marginal territory when we discuss the .380 and the .32, but I don't really care. I can carry my Colt Mustang in summer clothes and be comfortable, drop it in my jeans pocket and forget about it - I don't have to plan a wardrobe around my gun, or get jabbed in the kidneys getting in and out of my car. Most importantly, with a .380 I'll HAVE a gun since I actually carry it everywhere, something that was proving difficult with my Compact .45 during summer months or at times when I had to get up and go on short notice.

I still carry the .45 when I think it's indicated and I do feel better protected with it. But I don't feel "unarmed" with my .380, there are 7 Hydra-Shocks lined up and waiting, and another 6 in the spare mag. Rule #1: Have a gun.
 
Brandon...

My first carry pistol, right after I obtained my CCW was a Colt Mustang Pocketlite. Looks almost exactly like a small 1911. It is a very soft shooter. And, just like it's bigger brothers, it has a locking barrel. It weighs 12.5 ounces and has a stainless slide and alloy frame. It's very accurate. I keep the mag loaded with alternating rounds of Glaser Blue Tip and Federal Hydra-Shok "PD". Anyone who says a .380 Glaser won't penetrate has not tried one or seen the destruction they can do.
Please allow me to say something about shouting the "right words" to an intruder so he'll get scared and leave. You can do what you want, but having been in a place where the guy's in the black pajamas and sneakers were trying their damndest to shoot me as full of holes as possible, I think it's a very bad idea to give away your position by shouting ANYTHING. They would have been delighted to hear me shout something and happily would have filled the air with bullets heading right to the place where my shouts had came from. If he's in your house, he already has made the decision to kill you if he has to. Giving away your position will make his job immensely easier as he smiles and sends several bullets your way, or maybe takes a defensive position himself just waiting for you to think, "Well, he's gone now and I might as well flip on a light and call the police". Several guys who I sent to greet their ancestors never knew I was there. (Bad dreams again tonight, but at least I told you what happens when you give away your position.)

Kentucky Rifle
 
Brandon, I'm a police officer and I carry a Makarov 9X18 or a Kel Tec P32 off duty (usually both). Your .380 will do the job if you do your part. I've seen plenty of GSW's, a hit with a .380 is never pretty. Shot placement and weapon reliability will always be more important than caliber and stopping power. Keep Shooting!
 
The BIG pistol for police around the world, 'till recently, was the .380 and the Spooks of the world are still often found with a double stack Beretta .380 and FMJ.

My favorite ammo in any caliber is the accurate, penetrating, explosively effective Quik-Shok by Triton Ammo.

http://www.triton-ammo.com/index1.html

Shot placement is, as has been said so many times and so well, paramount. The Quik-Shok adds another huge measure. And, then shoot 'till you're safe.
 
Jim Bond himself packs a Walther .32, no?

Hell, you're better armed than 007!

Now, I'd prefer something like a .357 or a .45 ACP if I somehow blundered my way into a gunfight -- I have to admit that. But a Sig P232, loaded with Hydrashoks, is nothing to sneer at. In fact, I imagine James Bond would be damned proud to pack that Sig, if only stodgy old Q branch didn't insist on the inferior Walther.

Bigger is better, just ask my wife -- but the .380 ACP is a surprisingly effective round. It's also easier to shoot than a nine, notwithstanding assertions to the contrary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top