Triton is trying my patience!

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david_m_curry

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I am sure that the folks at Triton are good, well-intentioned people people, however they are simply unreliable and unrealistic with their delivery dates and I am getting upset. In fact I feel lied to because I prepaid for an order of .40 Super when Triton told me two weeks ago over the phone that they were just finishing up their run of 200,000 rounds of .40 Super and it would be shipping in a week. I went to my dealer who verified this with his distributor (RSR, I believe) and I put down my money. Today, I call Triton and ask if they were shipping .40 Super yet. The reply was "No, we haven't made any yet for sale and probably won't before the end of the year." Great. So I call Starline brass who is supposedly making the brass according to the Triton webpage. The Starline folks say "We made some prototype brass for them, but no production brass and we have no plans to sell .40 Super brass." Wonderful. I call back Triton and ask where I can get .40 Super brass since Starline was not it. The answer was "That's proprietary information, I can't tell you." Way uncool. Triton, by stating that .40 Super brass would be available has made a commitment which they should follow through on whether it be with Starline or JoeBob Smith.

Basically, Triton has talked both Bar-sto and Jarvis into making barrels for a cartridge which simply doesn't exist for the public-at-large. That's not right because they will be stuck inventorying barrels for which no cartridge exists. They've created a lot of excitement among a certain group of handgun enthusiasts and make it appear as if something exists which doesn't. I mean, their website expressly states that Starline is making brass available which is simply wrong.

However, I wonder if the .451 Detonics case is long enough (0.992") to form into .40 Super or if I could just trim .45 Winchester Magnum brass (nice waste of my time) and run it through a .40 Super die. However, I won't be surprised if I call RCBS and they have never heard of the .40 Super even though Triton's website says that they make the dies.

Hopefully, my dealer will allow me to cancel my order of Triton ammo since it isn't going to happen this year.

I should have just bought a simple, effective, and available 10mm Auto!

Mr. Coelho, founder of Triton, seems like a nice, helpful guy. I *almost* hate to rag him like this but when he on occasion (maybe rightfully so) points out the superiority of their quality control over that of Cor-bon's, I want to point out that Peter Pi didn't incite folks to buy pistols chambered in .400 Corbon and make it appear that both brass and ammo were available and then say "oops... I guess nobody made any! Gee, I thought starline made brass. Gee, I thought we made ammo. Oh, well. Maybe next year. Thanks for your interest in Triton Cartridge!"
 
They did something similar about 6 months or so back when their website showed that quik-shok was available in 10mm, yet they had never even made a production run, so I gave up. Also, as I stated before on TFL, they have lost credibility with me my stating other untruths on their website. Though I have to tell you I also like the .40 Super idea, which it sounds like an idea is about all that is really is right now. They need to cough up enough dough to get Starline to make the brass - it would be good for them and for Starline, assuming that the dies are indeed available and that, as you say, there is a substantial block of interested shooters.

As you indicate, what they are doing is a big mistake because you have to strike while the iron is hot in terms of taking advantage of the piqued public interest when the interest is at its highest, and that time is shortly after the cartridge is introduced, before it becomes old news. No telling how many others like you with money to spend are now going to turn away altogether.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited August 17, 1999).]
 
Small companies sometimes puts the cart before the horse.

It is most annoying... But forgivable on a whole. Look at Bushmaster! There are the WORST in Customer Service - and yet they put out the BEST product! What can ya Do?

Try to get your money back - cancell the order... And in the mean time - fire up .400 Corbon!

------------------
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
Ok, I've calmed down now. I've also come up with a solution: I'm going to call Triton tomorrow and see if they will sell me a small quantity of once-fired brass for more than they are really worth. Maybe $30 for 100 cases.
 
OK, I'm going to chime in here. I know Fernando personally and a little about Triton.

Triton started out as a small operation which took off due to a good product idea. Triton is now in the second stage of Initial Public Offering of stock (the first stage ended, if I remember last summer).

Why would they as a small company sell stock? One thing... working capital. It got to the point where Triton, as is, could in NO way keep up with the orders they were receiving. Guess it was either massive loans or go public to get the funds to build a new, bigger manufacturing facility.

And that is exactly what is happening. I don't know how far along their facility is but I do how delays come up... expecially when your dealing with contractors. My company is in the process of building a new plant. It was suppose to be up and running in June.... we are now hopeing we can start trials by October... that would put it up and running late November/early December.

Also, we have customers that my boss, the President, call 1200 pound Gorillas. Ya know, they are the 3 - 5 customers out of the hundred or so you got that make up 35% to 45% of your profits. When we get into the twice a year crunch after Showtime guess which customers get priority and which get push back on delivery. Also during this time guess which customers ask for and get 1 week delivery? (industry standard is 4 week, big boys get 3) YEP... The 1200 Gorillas.

Now, put yourself in Tritons shoes... you have a product that is in high deman, you don't have the facility to keep up with all the orders, your trying to get a new plant built, equipted, staffed and running, you have some Gorillas (in Triton's case I would guess Govt/LEO) placeing large (contract ?) orders, other customers placeing normal orders, and you have a product that uses a proprietary component (we have a product that uses a sort of propriety component, we make it ourselves and still have a hard time keeping up with orders for it (due to the delivery of the components used to make it).

Where do you place your attention?!? Simply manufactureing experience will tell you the ONLY place you can is with your Gorillas. That allows you to keep a good cash flow, so you can finish your facility that will allow you to better service ALL your customers.

Do you let your propriety stuff out? Yeah sure... if you want to let others, who might be better equipted at the current time to produce it, knock you off and take away your future business. They may try anyway.. but giving it to them? My company gets knocked off all the time on our propriety stuff... but it is a knock off and not exactly the same as our stuff. Are we going to show them how we make it... HELL NO. Let them figure it out, find the equipment, run the trials and tests like we did!

As I've said... I know Fernando personally. I know that he is doing everything possible to get his product out to everyone. There are just probably alot of "variables" happening now with Triton and that at looking at all of them, and where Triton wants to go, Fernando has had to make some tough decisions that are driven by business to ensure he/Triton can reach their goal... which is to provide their product to everyone at a normal delivery.

And, NO, I an not on Triton's payroll nor do I receive any compensation of any kind. Point in fact... I almost burned down Triton's booth at the Atlanta SHOT Show! :D


------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"


[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 17, 1999).]
 
David_m_curry - I don't mind being slammed but before you go off, get your facts straight first. Try calling 1-800-861-3362 and ask for Fernando Coelho. Then feel free to post what you want.

Who ever said that Starline was the sole source of .40 Super brass? I will be on the phone with Robert Hayden Jr. at Starline to clarify why they already agreed to market the brass to the retail market and even have it mentioned in a what's new column in Rifle & Shotgun magazine (pg 40) but now say they aren't making it.

Triton has posted the .40 Super in the web site in order to build interest in the cartridge or see if people have any dislikes. We have not added it to our Quik-Shok, Hi-Vel or CQD Frangible sections of our catalog or other printed material since we were waiting till the ammo was made and in stock. We are also timing it with the release of the guns from STI (factory new, not conversions).

Why would I (and Tom Burczynski) go through all the development over the last two + years with the .40 Super and not plan on having it ready for the general public? There are two reasons why the distributors do not have the ammo yet: 1) we are clearing out backorders in the other calibers that take priority over the .40 Super. No matter how great the .40 Super is we still have to get the 9mm, 40S&W, 45 ACP etc. out the door. That takes priority. On a few instances .40 Super runs were delayed or put off in order to produce other calibers of greater priority. 2) We did not want to be accused of offering ammo for a gun that doesn't exist yet. You may think it's ok but distributors get quite pissed when you sell them ammo that has no gun for it in the market.

The magazines are currently working on the articles on the .40 Super and we always had it in mind to have the ammo ready for distributors when the articles hit the newsstand. If I remember correctly, many handguns and ammunition have been featured in the magazines and months later still no gun or ammo. We are avoiding that problem. The only place we have "advertised" the .40 Super is in the Triton web site. I'll be honest; we have been overwhelmed with requests about the cartridge through the web site. More so than ever expected. Instead of giving people on the Internet a heads up to a new product, now looking back I should have not said anything. It obviously does not pay off to give people a scoop on a new product.

Feel free to get your money back from your dealer. If he won't refund your money, call me and I'll send it to you.

Oh, and Peter Pi and the .400 Cor-Bon? Ask Al Greco, Peter's gunsmith, about the .400 Cor-Bon he shot at Second Chance that blew his gun up. How about the Canadian Mounted Police that suffered case head separation when testing the .400 Cor-Bon. The list goes on and on but go ahead and feel free to use .400 Cor-Bon.

Futo Inu - The 10mm is a great cartridge but sales of 10mm overall are terrible. We list a 10mm Quik-Shok and have put it on the backburner because of lack of demand. Yes, people want it. Enough so to justify probably 10 cases in orders. When we have 200 cases to produce in .40 S&W, 180 cases in 9mm, etc., you can get the idea that 10mm takes a step back in priority.

Strike while the iron is hot? It will be hot around October 1st when the November issue of Handguns is out with a cover story on the .40 Super. I know when the iron is hot and when it is not hot enough yet. There is also a term called premature ejaculation that describes well when the ammo is out before the gun.

Schmit - the staff for Triton's booth will be wearing Nomex for 2000! We will be prepared.

Thanks for the support. We do have many irons in the fire, including the .223 and .308 that EVERYONE wants. Everything here runs on a priority scale. Law enforcement agencies and major orders pay the bills and make growth possible. Unfortunately they take priority. At the same time we want everyone to be able to obtain our ammo.

It's funny, I went to the local tobacco shop in order to buy a Fuente Fuente Opus X cigar but they were out. They offered me a different Fuente brand cigar but I said I'd wait for the Opus X. I didn't want to settle for something less. The ammo industry is the same. Some people will wait for a good product to be available while others would rather complain about the unavailability, buy something else and complain some more. Such is life…

We are increasing production via the stock offering and continue to streamline various operations. It all turns into greater ammo output without having to raise prices on the end product.

Fernando
 
I would like to thank everybody for their input and especially you, Mr. Coelho. I know it isn't any fun to jump into a rant such as this one when it centers on your company and I really respect you for it.

First, I apologize if my comment on quality control didn't come across the way I meant it, but I was agreeing to my limited knowledge that you are very likely superior in that respect.

Second, a lot of my bitching was inappropriate and I would like to offer my apologies. However, you never addressed what really upset me, which was both myself and one of your distributors on seperate occasions were informed that the .40 Super was *already* produced and would be shipping in a week. Your employees do represent your company---I shouldn't have to ask for the president of the company to get a truthful answer. Also, your web page states point-blank that both Triton and Starline are currently making brass available. I'm not so worried about brass anymore because I've come to the conclusion that 7mm BR brass (very thin walls, 1.07" to the shoulder, and small primer pocket) would be very easy to form into .40 Super. I just think that you should change "is available" to "will be available" on your web page.

I do believe that you make a superior product, I recommend Triton, and I purchase your products (when I can find them :) :) :) ). I am not here to slander you, so please don't take it that way. I wish that I could take the heat off of what I said earlier.

Cheers,
David
 
Fernando, I will have to agree with you, that you of all people should know best when "the iron is hot", and even if you didn't, it would not be my place to tell you how to run your business. If a big-time article/ad like that is going to run, I'm sure you are right about the timing of having your product available. I was stating an opinion, and seriously doubt I could run the outfit as well as you - though I do stick by the idea that interest is piqued highest very near the first introduction of the cartridge. The problem here is exactly WHEN is it "introduced"? For techies on the net, it's already happened. For the general public, it has YET to happen. Though David makes a very good point about an outright falsehood (apparently) still being disseminated on your website, saying Starline makes the brass. Not saying its a willful falsehood, but a falsehood nonetheless.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
This is probably a stupid question, but...

Why make .40 super when 10mm already exists. Isn't .40 caliber a 10mm short anyway?

Confused?

:)
:)
 
Stoic (not an Epicurian, eh?),

.40 S&W is basically a 10mm Short, but .40 Super has about 25% greater useable powder capacity than the 10mm Auto. Basically, it is a .45 Winchester Magnum trimmed to .992" (same as the 10mm) and then necked to 10mm. I plan on using 7mm BR brass instead of .45 Win. Mag. for various reasons. The .40 Super is kind of a .400 Corbon lengthened and with stronger brass and a much higher operating pressure. Finally, .40 Super can probably be loaded to a max OAL of 1.275" (.45 ACP) which is longer than that of the 10mm Auto (1.260"). All things being equal, the .40 Super should have about 20-25% greater muzzle energy which means about 10-12% greater velocities (dE ~ dV^2). For example, using a 5" barrel, a 200 gr. bullet at 1300 fps is safely attainable with .40 Super, but would be pretty scary with a 10mm Auto.

I will happily share my Glock 21/Jarvis 5.5" barrel findings when I receive my .40 Super dies from RCBS which I just ordered today. Only $87.90 with shipping... oddball pistol stuff is so cheap compared to oddball rifle stuff... my last set of custom rifle dies with micrometer inline bullet seater cost $300.

Cheers,
David
 
Why .400 Cor-Bon?

Why .308?

Cause we CAN!

------------------
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
The .40 Super has been produced in Hi-Vel and CQD Frangible and was prepared for shipment to distributors that had previously ordered it. However, circumstances like firearms manufacturers requesting test ammunition along with writers and gunsmiths needing more caused me to re-think where the ammo should go. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to make money by shipping the ammo to distributors. Right now, however, it is more important for gun companies and gunsmiths to shoot it. Hell, we'll just make more.

Starline previously agreed to manufacture the brass and in a phone call today to Barbara Hayden at Starline it was confirmed that the brass would be made. Again, since the guns weren't out yet there was no rush. That is my fault for not rushing Starline to get the brass out for the reloaders. My priority was on the factory ammo.
 
david - not to bring on bad news but had you waited a little longer, Triton was going to release RCBS dies for .40 Super for about half the current going price. We are getting a bunch at one time and planned on passing the savings on to the reloaders. You also get 100 pieces of brass with the dies and load data.
 
Fernando

>the staff for Triton's booth will be wearing Nomex for 2000! We will be prepared.<

Remember the suit (aka Pyroman) I had on at the Gunstock "Lighting of the Grill"?

I OWN that!

You might be prepared for what you have seen... but not what I'm capable of if I really put my full effort into it. ;)

Charles is getting a new deck built out back. I was thinking LOX to light the grill next Gunstock. When I passed my thoughts on to Charles he threatened that "Any person carrying LOX towards his house will be shot on sight!" :(


------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"




[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
It's really good to have everybody on friendly terms again!

Fernando, thanks for sharing your plans for selling dies---I called RCBS and asked them if it would be any trouble to cancel my order since you were having a bunch made anyway. They had no problems whatsoever canceling my order.

Rich, you are far too kind to a guy still extracting a foot deeply lodged in an oral cavity!

Stoic, your welcome!

David Schmidbauer, I no longer understand what you are talking about :)
 
My thanks also for explaining the technical difference of the .40 Super. As one fairly long familiar with the more "conventional" cartridge designs, I, too, wondered why the big deal about what sounded like re-introducing the 10mm.

And now, for the further information and contemplation of Mr. Curry, Mr. Schmidbauer and others:

http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/

I give you the website of Mr. George Goble, keeper of the LOX flame. Please see under the "Hobbies and Other Interests" section. MPEG's soundbites, and stills, oh, my!

------------------
Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arms reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
 
Mr. Fernando Coelho of Triton posted:

"Oh, and Peter Pi and the .400 Cor-Bon? Ask Al Greco, Peter's gunsmith, about the .400 Cor-Bon he shot at Second Chance that blew his gun up. How about the Canadian Mounted Police that suffered case head separation when testing the .400 Cor-Bon. The list goes on and on but go ahead and feel free to use .400 Cor-Bon."

I have taken the liberty of forwarding a copy of this thread to Mr. Pi at Cor-Bon. I am not associated in any way with Mr. Pi or Cor-Bon. I've been shooting a .400 C-B since it was introduced. The only problems I'm aware of have been attributed to (1) improperly machined barrels [my first one was so far out of spec that the rounds wouldn't fully chamber], (2) overloads: this is not a cartridge to be hot-rodded, (3) bad brass: converting 45ACP brass can be done but carries with it potential problems. Much better is using new Starline .400 C-B brass.

Personally I am extremely offended that a CEO of a company would publically badmouth another firm's product in the same breath used to try to clarify end user concerns about his new product development. This tactic is a classic among the Washington DC spin-doctor crowd :(. It certainly doesn't speak well of Mr. Coelho's professional ethics.

I hope Mr. Pi or a Cor-Bon representative responds.

-=[Bob]=-
 
David - (I no longer understand what you are talking about)

LOL, Sorry. Those on the Firing Line that know me understand that I am an admitted Pyromaniac... Though I try and keep it under control it usually gets the best of me when lighting a charcoal grill (the more starter (at least 1/2 bottle) the faster the coals will get lit), putting together a camp fire (my idea of a normal camp fire is one with 4 - 7 foot flames) and such. Fernando has been present when I, clad in nomax, performed the ritual grill lighting a another friends house.

At the Atlanta SHOT show I was demonstrating a new survival firestarter I had pick up. I happened to be at Tritons booth (this was because the people that sold it to me ran me off from demonstrating it to people who showed an interest but a sales person was unavailable :) ). I admit, being an ammunition booth this probably wasn't the best place to be demonstrating this, what with the amount of lit magnizium (sp?) sparks that it put out.

DonL - Been there, have it in favorites... a man after my own heart!!

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"




[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 19, 1999).]
 
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