Triggers "too light for carry"

rodfac said:
A lot of good solid advice in Carl the Floor Walker's post. And I agree that in the heat of battle, fine motor skills may not be possible. Close in attackers, at arm's reach, or actual physical contact as in a fist swinging fight, are no place for a light trigger. Again, Good post Carl.

Tunnel, you've had a good deal of training in force on force and weapon retention if I've read your posts accurately over the years...what say you?

Rod
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Referencing Stephen426's example above, it would seem to me that the whole issue is whether your finger is, or isn't, on the trigger. If hearing a surprise "bang" while in a state of heightened stress is sufficient to trigger someone's hand to squeeze what it's holding, and is enough to overcome a 12 or 14 lb trigger weight, then surely the stress of grappling with an attacker would do at least that?

This gets back to the basis for my question -- and I'm not arguing or challenging, just probing --

I've had several instances in which a DA trigger has saved me from taking an errant shot in a competition because my sights weren't perfectly aligned, or a moving target had just passed behind a "no-shoot" barrier. But that's a situation in which I'm calmly aligning my sights and squeezing the trigger like I've been trained to do.

Since fine motor skills may not be available during a fight, then if my finger is too close to the trigger when something causes me to squeeze both hands, whether that trigger weighs 6 lb or 12, has 1" of travel or 0.1", won't I yank that sucker and fire the gun?

One instructor I've had gave the advice to carry your index finger up along the ejection port, rather than just along the side of the frame. It seemed really awkward at first, but sure enough, when push comes to shove (literally, he shoved me backwards and my hands clenched as I dug in and went into a defensive position) my finger got stuck in the port in the first case, and went right onto (and pulled) the (12 lb) trigger on my CZ.

Anyways, again, I'm not arguing for its own sake, I'm trying to understand whether a heavier/longer trigger actually makes a difference under stress.

(Other scenarios, like manipulating the gun, or just the other 99% of the time we're shooting and not under stress, may be enough to justify the heavier trigger all by themselves. Under normal circumstances, I'm definitely persuaded that a heavy trigger has safety advantages, without accuracy loss if I train enough. )
 
Even stock Double Action pistols seem to have pretty light triggers. Just for fun here are some measurements of a variety of pistols, the oldest from 1962 to ones made just last year.

Two of the pistols are traditional DA/SA but with those two only the DA trigger pull was taken. With each pistol ten readings were taken with my Lyman Digital Gauge and the average rounded to whole pounds and ounces.

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Folks are gonna do what they want to do. If a fella tells you that they have a self defense carry piece with a 3 pd short, crisp, trigger pull and have no issues with that and are proud of it, are you going to argue with them? There is not much you can say nor reason to say it.

The general advice from the old timers for decades was 4-6 pds. for a carry piece for it's single action trigger. You expected the da pull on a revolver to be heavier and the same with a dao or da/sa double action pull. The general advice there was that the longer da pull be smooth.

A person can argue what's the difference between 3 and 4 pounds in a sa trigger? Does it make a practical difference? Here the advice isn't about the precise weight so much as it's about having a trigger pull for you that makes an unintended discharge less likely.

Folks will ignore this of course.

There is a reason for the 4 basic rules. The reason is that they are routinely violated. Less now days than in the past, in part because of the 4 rules and more attention paid to the gun safety. But if you look at how folks handle their guns at the range, gunatoriums and gun shows. You'll see that there is a strong need for the 4 basic rules.

Don't talk on a cell phone while driving, particularly in traffic. Good advice. It's very good advice because it's routinely violated.

I never put my finger on the trigger till I'm ready to shoot, says the fella who just slipped down the stairs, bumped into a suddenly opened door, didn't see the oil spill on the sidewalk in the dark, etc.

So folks have to decide, for the purpose of the gun and how it's going to be used, how do you want to make a unintended shot less likely and what will help that. That's a combination of things of which the type of trigger and it's smoothness and break are one part to consider.

tipoc
 
Personal preference.

Oh, what's mine?

I don't mine them a little heavier than normal. Why? Because it gives you less room for error.

That said, I have no issues carrying a Glock or Smith and Wesson striker-fired pistol. Even with some trigger work done I don't mind.

I just prefer a DA/SA in most applications.
 
If we are totally honest there are lots of folk who should not be trusted with a handgun or car or knife with a blade longer than 1/4" or children or farm tools or any power tool or ...

Sooner or later as responsible owners we need to address the issue of training and proficiency.
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The truth bomb.
 
Having carried everything from a 1980's crappy factory S&W double action to tuned S&W's and Colts, 1911's, Glocks, H&K's into harms way for close to 40 years, shot competitively with same; I carry a Glock with a tuned action.
 
Having carried everything from a 1980's crappy factory S&W double action to tuned S&W's and Colts, 1911's, Glocks, H&K's into harms way for close to 40 years, shot competitively with same;
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I carry a Glock with a tuned action.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
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Armorer
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Thanks for your service...
 
Everyone talking about trigger weights...
Nobody mentioning why they became an issue in the first place...
So, as an old guy who kinda sorta remembers old guy stuff...I'll share ;)

Shortly after the invent of the WonderNine the NYPD got a BUNCH of 'em...
not too soon thereafter 4 officers got into a shootout with a BG, at which time
well, let's just say their shooting sucked and a bunch of bystanders were hit...
Some bright joker came up with the idea that if the triggers were heavier to pull,
that less bystanders would be injured as less shots would be fired!!
BINGO!! THE NY TRIGGER came into effect. S&W had to install heavier triggers
in all the guns they sent to NYPD...this became a police standard in Yankee Territory...
The South, on the other hand, just told folks, "If Cops are shooting at a BG, Hit the Deck!"

So, in toto, the reason for the heavy carry trigger is to keep folks from Spraying & Praying,
but let's be honest, they gonna do it anyway ;)
 

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Big Shrek said:
Everyone talking about trigger weights...

Nobody mentioning why they became an issue in the first place...

So, as an old guy who kinda sorta remembers old guy stuff...I'll share ;)



Shortly after the invent of the WonderNine the NYPD got a BUNCH of 'em...

not too soon thereafter 4 officers got into a shootout with a BG, at which time

well, let's just say their shooting sucked and a bunch of bystanders were hit...

Some bright joker came up with the idea that if the triggers were heavier to pull,

that less bystanders would be injured as less shots would be fired!!

BINGO!! THE NY TRIGGER came into effect. S&W had to install heavier triggers

in all the guns they sent to NYPD...this became a police standard in Yankee Territory...

The South, on the other hand, just told folks, "If Cops are shooting at a BG, Hit the Deck!"



So, in toto, the reason for the heavy carry trigger is to keep folks from Spraying & Praying,

but let's be honest, they gonna do it anyway ;)
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Just because NY has the NY Yankees doesn't mean they are representative of what all Yankees think and do. I can assure you that plenty of us in the north are smart enough to duck.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Generally anything over 4 lbs. is considered the lowest you want to go on a carry pistol.
My M&P Compact is right at 4Lbs.. My PPQ is a hair over 4 lbs. Never had a problem with triggers that light. Now some of my friends have target pistols with
2 lbs. or less triggers.
Being used to "carry triggers" I can't hardly shoot them. Feels like when I touch them they go off. And I mean just my finger making contact with the trigger. I had Wilson Combat work over one of my 1911's. It is 3.25 lbs. exactly. I first got it back I unintentionally double tapped it a couple of times. Got used to it finally. Bu it's a range toy. Guess it depends on what you are used to.
If you've shot 10-12 lb. DA revolvers then going to a 4-4.5 lb. trigger could be a problem. I love the triggers on my M&P and PPQ. You till have to make a deliberate attempt to pull the trigger. And especially with the M&P their is some take up before it fires. The PPQ you feel the point at which it breaks very distinctly.
So no to me they are excellent triggers. I also feel and have trained all my life that the finger is not on the trigger until it's time to shoot. Also fired the other guns you mentioned. The Sig was around 5 lbs.. Again it's personal taste. If you don't feel comfortable with the trigger at those pull weights go for something else. To me they are about perfect.
 
At a range recently I witnessed an older gentleman with severe arthritis loose control of his pistol and produce a fully automatic sounding string of 4 shots. The RO approached and had a discussion with the gentleman, Turns out his affliction affected his ability to grasp and his swollen fingers filled the trigger guard. The gun he was using had a very quick reset and fairly light trigger. We all concluded the recoil turned his weakened hand into a "bumpstock", vibrating through the extra rounds. It scared the guy. Gave me pause too and made clear the fact that some guns are not as safe as others.
 
If my finger is on the trigger it means that I am going to pull it. If I put holes where I want to, when I want to during training I'll likely do the same thing if I ever have to use my carry gun.
 
People have already said it but the biggest safety devices include your brain, good practices, and a proper holster. I feel most comfortable with DA/SA and positive feedback from a hammer (or protruding indicator) when reholstering.
 
I think the race for light triggers in striker fired guns is an accident waiting to happen.

I have carried a 1911, on and off, for 35 years. It has a nice crisp 4 pound trigger. And, an off switch.

I also carry it on duty with a strap between the hammer and the firing pin.

There are two problems in my view with striker fired guns and light triggers. One, the trigger doesn’t care what pulls it. Wagging your finger and declaring “this is my safety” doesn’t matter if, when holstering, a draw cord, thumb strap or edge of a holster pushes the trigger.

Secondly, there is no visual or tactile feedback that the guns about to fire. On a DA revolver or semi (with a hammer) you can see and feel the hammer coming back IF the trigger hits something when holstering.

No one would carry a cocked and unlocked Series 80 1911 yet, it has the same trigger weight as a Glock. (5 pounds or so). A firing pin safety AND a grip safety.

But, it also has an off switch.
 
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