Triggers "too light for carry"

Everyone carrying a gun of any type of action must overcome the challenges of their respective choice of action type.

The one who carries a striker-fired gun without a manual safety must overcome the challenge of holstering, drawing, and handling the gun without unintentional discharges. In return they get a consistently, creepy, crappy trigger and typically a low bore-center.

The one who carries a single-action with a safety in condition 1 must overcome the challenge to train and consistently disengage the safety or ride the safety when shooting, and to remember to re-engage the safety before holstering. In return, they get a wonderful, consistent, single-action trigger.

The one who carries a DA/SA auto decocked (condition 2) has to overcome the long, hard DA trigger pull and the inconsistency of the first pull to all subsequent SA trigger actuations, and they must remember to decock the gun before holstering. In return they get a long, hard trigger pull that gives some margin of safety from unintentional discharges, and a single action pull with take-up, grit and a vague wall.

The one who carries a DA (revolver) has to overcome a long, hard DA trigger. In return they enjoy a consistent, smooth trigger pull. The action is always safe from the unintentional pull of a light trigger by any means. The shooter does not have to remember to actuate a safety or decocker. No different actions are required for misfires (no tap, rack, bang) but subsequent trigger pulls will fire the next cartridge. The rate of fire is theoretically greater than a SA auto, and it is more accurate than a gun whose barrel jiggles around when the action is cycling. DA (revolvers at least) do generally have lower capacity than the highest capacity auto loaders. .357 for example is usually capped at 8 shot.

If you receive a benefit from quick-change 20 round magazines, I would suggest a submachine gun might be an even better fit for your mission. They're awesome. Everyone should try one before they substitute a pistol for what really works better. At least then they'll know what they're missing. The buzz gun's usually going to be a SA in condition 1 and hopefully you get a third position on your lever for auto. The tradeoff is they're a little harder to conceal, but you can carry them in a shoulder holster, a briefcase, a shoulder bag, a toolbox, or just under a newspaper.

So you can see everyone has something to overcome to be proficient and safe. Pick your challenge.
 
labnoti said:
Everyone carrying a gun of any type of action must overcome the challenges of their respective choice of action type.



The one who carries a striker-fired gun without a manual safety must overcome the challenge of holstering, drawing, and handling the gun without unintentional discharges. In return they get a consistently, creepy, crappy trigger and typically a low bore-center.



The one who carries a single-action with a safety in condition 1 must overcome the challenge to train and consistently disengage the safety or ride the safety when shooting, and to remember to re-engage the safety before holstering. In return, they get a wonderful, consistent, single-action trigger.



The one who carries a DA/SA auto decocked (condition 2) has to overcome the long, hard DA trigger pull and the inconsistency of the first pull to all subsequent SA trigger actuations, and they must remember to decock the gun before holstering. In return they get a long, hard trigger pull that gives some margin of safety from unintentional discharges, and a single action pull with take-up, grit and a vague wall.



The one who carries a DA (revolver) has to overcome a long, hard DA trigger. In return they enjoy a consistent, smooth trigger pull. The action is always safe from the unintentional pull of a light trigger by any means. The shooter does not have to remember to actuate a safety or decocker. No different actions are required for misfires (no tap, rack, bang) but subsequent trigger pulls will fire the next cartridge. The rate of fire is theoretically greater than a SA auto, and it is more accurate than a gun whose barrel jiggles around when the action is cycling. DA (revolvers at least) do generally have lower capacity than the highest capacity auto loaders. .357 for example is usually capped at 8 shot.



If you receive a benefit from quick-change 20 round magazines, I would suggest a submachine gun might be an even better fit for your mission. They're awesome. Everyone should try one before they substitute a pistol for what really works better. At least then they'll know what they're missing. The buzz gun's usually going to be a SA in condition 1 and hopefully you get a third position on your lever for auto. The tradeoff is they're a little harder to conceal, but you can carry them in a shoulder holster, a briefcase, a shoulder bag, a toolbox, or just under a newspaper.



So you can see everyone has something to overcome to be proficient and safe. Pick your challenge.
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No hint of bias at all. Well done.

/sarcasm

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A proper holster, keeping in mind trigger pull and safety mechanism(s) if present on any given firearm, are obviously important considerations in avoiding negligent discharges. One need not be a rocket scientist to recognize the importance.
 
I think that if I heard/read people saying "I believe that Gun X's trigger is too light for me to safely carry," it would be in the realm of opinion and preference. Maybe what triggered me (get it?!) is hearing it presented as absolute fact. Hearing someone say "A PPQ's trigger is too short, so a DA revolver is safer" is still easier for me to grasp than "A PPQ's trigger is too short, so an XD is safer." Differences measure in tenths of a pound and fractions of an inch are negligible.

I think the biggest insurance (beyond being attentive and careful EVERY time) against NDs when putting the gun into a holster is some mechanism that immobilizes or at least blocks the trigger from being pulled. An external safety -- thumb or grip -- could achieve this. So does a hammer, or something that allows your thumb to press down and prevent a striker from moving rearward (e.g. the "Glock Gadget")

While I don't personally like thumb safeties, they do at least prevent an ND when drawing from the holster, while adding the step of disengaging the safety when drawn. I've also never trained with one. I certainly won't join the chorus of people who mock anyone who prefers to have one, or yell "it'll get you killed!!!" at them :)
 
A smooth trigger is far more important than its pull weight. That 10 plus pound trigger that is smooth will work just fine. A gritty, rough 10 pounds is not. There is a requirement for practice as well.
That "accidental manipulation" is entirely possible with any trigger.
 
I carry a 22lr pistol on the trap line. I have some 22 pistols with trigger pulls under 3#. I refuse to carry any of those pistols for "field use" simply because it's just too easy to have a shot get away due to cold, stiff fingers or other factors.
You're NEVER that guy who has a ND until you ARE that guy and it can happen so you certainly don't want it to happen in a SD scenario.
 
For me, personally, it's not primarily about weight but about length of pull
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I mostly agree - I think both need to be considered. Target pistols are light, short, and smooth. How much of any of those you need to give up to be safe varies from person to person.

My two carry pistols are a Glock 26 and a Sig P238 for pocket carry. The difference between the measured pull weights is small. (I don't have the numbers in my head, but IIRC they differ by less than a pound.) The P238 has a thumb safety, which in my mind is needed, because the travel is so small that it feels quite lighter and fires considerably easier. The Glock is fine without a thumb safety because of the longer trigger travel.

No one wants grit in their trigger, but length and weight have complementary effects that cause us to perceive a trigger to be easier or harder to fire, and thus to be safe with in a carry situation.
 
I think that if I heard/read people saying "I believe that Gun X's trigger is too light for me to safely carry," it would be in the realm of opinion and preference. Maybe what triggered me (get it?!) is hearing it presented as absolute fact.
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To be frank, get used to it now. This is the firearms community in a nutshell. It's not completely incomprehensible. People are making decisions about devices they are carrying with the assumption being those devices could/will save their lives. They have to rationalize those decisions to themselves and then when someone comes along that challenges that decision they feel a necessity to defend their decision, sometimes to a point that seems ridiculous.

I think the biggest insurance (beyond being attentive and careful EVERY time) against NDs when putting the gun into a holster is some mechanism that immobilizes or at least blocks the trigger from being pulled. An external safety -- thumb or grip -- could achieve this. So does a hammer, or something that allows your thumb to press down and prevent a striker from moving rearward (e.g. the "Glock Gadget")
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I did want to comment on this. NDs when holstering, in my experience of taking 20+ courses at a relatively large defensive firearms academy and talking to the instructors about their experiences in years being there and elsewhere, are most often people that still had their fingers on the trigger. This has happened a few times over the years at the academy I attend from the sheer number of students that attend and the course of time. Someone goes to holster the pistol, doesn't remove their finger, and then the act of holstering drives their finger to the rear. Seems dumb, but it happens. Would a gadget solve this? It might, but so would trigger finger discipline. Obviously you could have both for redundancy and we know people make mistakes.

The majority of NDs in general that I've seen, read about, and the ND I had myself were people pressing triggers on what they thought were empty chambers. They were convinced the chamber was empty and made the deliberate decision to fire. No gadget was going to stop them at that point (the manual safety and the DA pull of my 5903 didn't stop me because I had chosen to fire).

I've noticed that the potential for an ND while holstering is a relatively big concern of yours in that you've brought it up a lot and used it was the reasoning for carrying certain firearms. Nothing wrong with that. What I would say is I think you're blowing that concern out of proportion. In my experience there are other far more likely causes of NDs than what you're describing. Trigger guards exist for a reason. What you're envisioning is something small enough to be in a trigger guard and not stop the pistol from being holstered in the first place, but also have enough mass and size and/or enough leverage to drive the trigger completely to the rear. Again, in my experience and what I've read that isn't common.

Along those lines what tend to be problems are crappy holsters that fold into themselves and then into the trigger guard and then people that don't make sure the cover garment is clear when they go to reholster. Frankly there's no reason for these to be problems. Quality holsters aren't that expensive. There's also no contest for holstering quickly. If you're holstering you're doing so because you've determined the threat has stopped. Clear the cover garment and, heck, if you think something fell in the holster take a peek before you holster (I know sacrilege) or don't even holster. Wait til you hear someone responding, put the firearm on the ground (obviously not near the threat), and move to the side.

This isn't me saying don't carry the firearms that you do. Again, personal preference and we can argue that there is nothing wrong with redundancy (and then people will argue that certain redundancy is too much). It's just me saying I've seen people fixate on problems and decide, "This is what is going to get me, so if I make sure that doesn't happen I'll be set." Then those people get bit by something else.
 
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Not to take this off topic, but HOW you carry should dictate WHAT you carry, at least imho.

If you carry in a pocket or iwb appendix carry, would stay away from light triggers, or short triggers. If your carrying strong side owb, get the best trigger you can.
 
I've noticed that the potential for an ND while holstering is a relatively big concern of yours in that you've brought it up a lot and used it was the reasoning for carrying certain firearms. Nothing wrong with that. What I would say is I think you're blowing that concern out of proportion. In my experience there are other far more likely causes of NDs than what you're describing.
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OK, I'm going to ask a FNG(Farging New Guy) question..I'm at my 1 year anniversary having a CCWP. Why ANY emphasis on efficient, quick 'reholstering'? Seems like, ya need a gun, pulling it out quickly and efficiently is essential..when the event is over..yes, may want to 'put it away'...but now you have time to do that 'reholster' slowly, deliberately..I use a holster that I have to take off my belt(IwB, A appendix)..to reholster and that 'seems' really safe in that I cannot 're-attach' the gun to the 'holster' w/o pushing it in, no way for my finger to be on trigger, not any way for my clothing to fowl the trigger, since the 'holster' is in my hand..

eh?
 

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Yeah I mentioned not needing to holster quickly extensively. If you want to take off the holster fair enough, though I don't think it's necessary.

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USNRet93 said:
OK, I'm going to ask a FNG(Farging New Guy) question..I'm at my 1 year anniversary having a CCWP. Why ANY emphasis on efficient, quick 'reholstering'? Seems like, ya need a gun, pulling it out quickly and efficiently is essential..when the event is over..yes, may want to 'put it away'...but now you have time to do that 'reholster' slowly, deliberately..I use a holster that I have to take off my belt(IwB, A appendix)..to reholster and that 'seems' really safe in that I cannot 're-attach' the gun to the 'holster' w/o pushing it in, no way for my finger to be on trigger, not any way for my clothing to fowl the trigger, since the 'holster' is in my hand..

eh?
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Maybe I've come across wrong. There's no emphasis on QUICK reholstering, just safe reholstering. Taking the time, each and every time, to clear all garments and every possible obstruction, and slowly put the gun back into its home will ensure it's never a problem. I agree with TunnelRat that NDs during holstering are a statistically small edge case. The problems I've heard of, with NDs occuring at these times, are usually during times of stress -- competition or more likely, actual engagements. Someone is still in a state of stress and the body goes on autopilot, and they put the gun away in a rush, and that's where something could happen.

*Could* being the operative word. It could happen on the draw. It's rare and I'm always very careful. But when I hear of a lifelong instructor having an ND during a training class, it reminds me, yeah, it could happen to me. That one stray bullet may be one in 100K rounds he's fired in his lifetime, but it could be the one that goes into his leg, or someone else's.
 
OhioGuy said:
Maybe I've come across wrong. There's no emphasis on QUICK reholstering, just safe reholstering. Taking the time, each and every time, to clear all garments and every possible obstruction, and slowly put the gun back into its home will ensure it's never a problem. I agree with TunnelRat that NDs during holstering are a statistically small edge case. The problems I've heard of, with NDs occuring at these times, are usually during times of stress -- competition or more likely, actual engagements. Someone is still in a state of stress and the body goes on autopilot, and they put the gun away in a rush, and that's where something could happen.

*Could* being the operative word. It could happen on the draw. It's rare and I'm always very careful. But when I hear of a lifelong instructor having an ND during a training class, it reminds me, yeah, it could happen to me. That one stray bullet may be one in 100K rounds he's fired in his lifetime, but it could be the one that goes into his leg, or someone else's.
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That's why firearms safety is a layered defense. The typical rules are redundant for a reason. I can have poor trigger finger discipline and as long as my muzzle management is good when I send off an errant round it's likely I won't cause a fatality (certain ricochets only happen in the movies). I can have poor muzzle management and as long as my trigger control is good while I'll likely scare someone the gun won't discharge itself. The goal is to have all of this, but if one fails you should be protected by the other.

Certain forms of carry, such as appendix, aren't as tolerant of errors than others, at least in terms of the potential consequences. While I don't personally carry appendix, one option is that while holstering you lean back slightly and insert the pistol with the muzzle pointed away from your body (bore canted slightly up and riding the interior of the outside of the holster) for as long of the insertion as possible.

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Hello,

In my view, you just have to draw the line somewhere.

For me, now, a SA 3.5lb trigger (1911) or a DA 2.5lb trigger would be the threshold.

For me 20 years ago, the 8lb DA/5lb SA Taurus PT92 I bought as my first serious handgun was about perfect.

I won't recommend anything lighter than a 5lb handgun trigger to new shooters.

Regards,
Josh
 
In reality you shouldn't draw the gun if shooting isn't warranted. Again don't touch the trigger until you want to shoot. It's as simple as that. I'm a fan of the single action with a safety. I would carry a Glock if it had a safety. I do carry a revolver but it has a trigger pull of at least double the Glock, the Glock is 4-1/2 to 5# as near as I can test it.
The very first time I put the 19 in my holster the string from my wind breaker went into the holster with the gun. It didn't pull the trigger but in it went. (The gun wasn't loaded). If you carry one, remove any strings from wind breakers, parkas etc. Right now the Glock is a range gun, trigger is crunchy, if it smooths up it will be a good shooter.
 
How many of you guys carry a wheel gun for self defense? I know they are designed to be shot in DA, but SA is a much lighter and shorter trigger pull. I'm not trying to create an impossible scenario, but if there was time to draw the gun and pull the hammer back, would you feel that is unsafe? What if it was a longer distance shot or a hostage type situation? I don't like the long heavy trigger pull of revolvers in DA. My Ruger GP 100 has a very short and fairly light single action trigger pull.

I have a few other guns with great trigger pulls including:
Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special
Heckler & Koch P7M8
Sig P210A
STI Edge

I would feel okay carrying any of the above listed guns, despite their light, crisp triggers. As other have mentioned, draw your weapon only when necessary, don't point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy, and keep you finger off the trigger. I understand that stress can make a heavy trigger seem like a hair trigger.

I hate to admit it, but it happened to me before. I heard a noise and went to investigate. I had a Sig Sauer P229 that was a DA/SA gun. I foolishly and arrogantly thought that I had enough experience to keep my finger on the trigger. Thank God I kept muzzle discipline as a loud bang (car back firing?) caused me to flinch and pull the 12 lb. DA trigger, causing a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. I refuse to call it accidental because I had my finger on the trigger. I was carrying frangible ammo (Mag Safe) which did very little damage to the floor. Let's say lesson learned and thank go no one was hurt (except my pride). Would a lighter trigger make a difference? I doubt it. Would an even heavier trigger (think AMT Backup), make a difference? Doubtful. It sure would make it hard to hit your target though.
 
I carry a wheel gun and having trained to shoot double-action, I don't consider cocking and shooting in single action to be of any practical benefit. I have competed against myself with both a single-action revolver, a double-action cocking it, and a double-action in double-action. On slow, aimed fire, the DA in DA was the best and I can hit a target at 50 yards with it. I'm not a bullseye shooter or any kind of crack shot. I train to meet a standard, and if my skills meet that standard, trick equipment doesn't add anything.

Why didn't I just automatically shoot better with the single-action? Because it's not just automatically better. I trained with the double action and not with the single action because it suits my purpose best. I wasn't able to shoot the single action better because I hadn't trained with it as much.

Now I can believe that a single action trigger could help a bullseye shooter that is trying to go far beyond my standard. They could set a much higher goal for precision, accuracy and consistency. But a standard based on those goals has no practical application for self-defense. Good enough is good enough.
 
In reality you shouldn't draw the gun if shooting isn't warranted.
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Incorrect. In reality there are many scenarios wherein one should have their firearm at the ready while they determine whether or not the discharge of said firearm is warranted.
 
One day, I said hell no to light, crisp triggers and never looked back. Really do not care what anyone on the internet say's. I believe they are dangerous for EDC and will not carry one any longer.
I also belive that no matter what anyone says, there is a natural tendency for people to place their finger on a trigger under high stress no matter how well trained.
I believe the human body to include hands and fingers do contract during this stress the same way a person will blink their eyes. And I would bet there are people out there, to include police officers etc. that only wish they had, had a stronger trigger before the gun went off.

I made a move to seek out a nice double action Pistol and Never looked back I could care less about all the cute little quotes like "The best trigger is the one in your head" crap.

Here is another thing, I can shoot a double action every bit as good as I could a light Crisp trigger in fast action shooting. I always laugh when some internet poster talks about a trigger as crappy simply because it is double action. He should say, that he is crappy at shooting one.

You want a light trigger for carry? Be my guest. The way I look at it, better you than me.
 
A lot of good solid advice in Carl the Floor Walker's post. And I agree that in the heat of battle, fine motor skills may not be possible. Close in attackers, at arm's reach, or actual physical contact as in a fist swinging fight, are no place for a light trigger. Again, Good post Carl.

Tunnel, you've had a good deal of training in force on force and weapon retention if I've read your posts accurately over the years...what say you?

Rod
 
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