Triggers "too light for carry"

O

OhioGuy

New member
I'm probably starting a fight here, and one that's been had before, but I'm not trying to. I'd like to get perspective from people who consider a certain weight/travel on a trigger to be "too light to safely carry."

The usual preference for people who believe this seems to be a DA trigger, whether DA/SA pistol or DA revolver. There, I'll certainly grant that a 10+ lb trigger with a long pull is a good deal more resistant to accidental manipulation than something half its weight. What does confuse me is when people start making distinctions among triggers that are all relatively close in spec. Maybe I'm not thinking it through enough, which is why I'm asking for perspective.

For instance, just this week in various forums (and once in person) I've heard the following triggers referred to as "too light to carry":

- Walther PPQ
- M&P
- Sig P320
- Sig P365

The stated alternatives that are "safe to carry" included Glocks, XDs and a CZ P-10c. Having fired all of these guns, I can't say I've ever perceived all that much difference among them. The PPQ has the crispest trigger (to my feelings anyway), and the Glock probably the stiffest, with the XD being maybe the longest and mushiest, but they're all within a pound of each other maybe?

Getting your finger inside the trigger guard on any of these during a high-stress draw will result in a discharge. And for that matter, under stress, a 13lb DA trigger may well also result in a discharge.

So I can see the validity of saying "I prefer to carry a DA/SA gun over a Glock, because that first pull gives me much more tactile feedback." I cannot understand "I prefer to carry a Glock or XD, over a Sig" when the trigger differences are so slight.

Can anyone enlighten me? I'm not here to mock anyone's choices. I just want to better understand the basis.
 
It's a valid concern in my view...too light for carry, that is. While I'm a 1911 user, carrier, and have been for the past 50+ years, I'm a bit hesitant when presenting from the holster when carrying that venerable classic. It's a matter of training, familiarity, and to a great extent, the circumstances under which I'd be forced to draw in the process of defending myself. All of my 1911's have 4 lb. or a bit more, triggers, BTW.

In a weapon retention scenario, one BTW that I have not had training for, the 1911 with its 4+ lb. trigger would make a non-commanded discharge a distinct possibility, in my view. LEO's here on the forum would be better able to discuss this issue, but it's a concern that I share with many civilians.

Fight scenarios have the ability to disrupt long practiced training in the valid issue of: "finger off the trigger"; and a heavier, though smooth, trigger may be a bit safer, in my opinion. Too, I'm of the belief that defensive encounters most likely, will be at extremely close range; one that will not require the precision that a lighter trigger affords. Heavier is better, and no real detriment, in that regard...YMMV.

Of the pistols you've listed, I own and carry the P365, a recent addition. It's been 100% reliable to date with 500+ rounds expended and has ergonomics that fit my hands to a tee. It's full time DA striker-type trigger is just right in my opinion, for carry...I've not tested the pull weight, but it's very similar to a S&W revolver that I've had tuned for superb DA pull. Smoooooth...with no glitches along the way...with it, I'm as accurate in DA mode as I am when shooting SA. The Sig P365 is just as comfortable when firing and offers more capacity with 10 in the mag, and one in the chamber; making it my current #1 choice for CC.

HTH's Rod
 
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So I can see the validity of saying "I prefer to carry a DA/SA gun over a Glock, because that first pull gives me much more tactile feedback." I cannot understand "I prefer to carry a Glock or XD, over a Sig" when the trigger differences are so slight.
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Agree..carry which is the most comfy in yer hand, that you enjoy shooting so that you get good at it, understand the gun, know the gun is reliable. Trigger differences for various strikers for this old fart are kinda lost in the 'noise' for me..
 
Different strokes for different folks.

Some say the trigger on the LCPII is too light. One of the main things I like about it is the trigger.
 
Do not touch the trigger unless you want to shoot. I like 3-1/2 to 4# range but I'll also shoot a D/A revolver that has a much heavier pull.
 
pete2 said:
Do not touch the trigger unless you want to shoot. I like 3-1/2 to 4# range but I'll also shoot a D/A revolver that has a much heavier pull.
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You are correct but in a very sudden SD situation that may be easier said than done. Adrenaline and body fluids suddenly running down your pants may trump keeping your finger off the trigger.
I would say the 1911 style would be of most concern for a sudden discharge. The traditional striker fired being the second and DA/SA being the last.
 
If we are totally honest there are lots of folk who should not be trusted with a handgun or car or knife with a blade longer than 1/4" or children or farm tools or any power tool or ...

Sooner or later as responsible owners we need to address the issue of training and proficiency.
 
For decades now the general advice on a good trigger pull weight for a carry gun has been 4-6 pds. The origins of this go back to the 1911 and when it was the dominant semi-automatic handgun, used for defensive purposes in the U.S. It was common then for a fella to get a factory gun and have a gunsmith adjust the trigger pull weight and feel to their needs or desires. The 1911 has a military type trigger with a light take up and then a crisp break, or should be, crisp and not spongy or gritty. So folks often had them worked on some.

New factory triggers were often anywhere from 8-12 pds. Especially during the decades when the major maker was Colt. Many GI guns were in the same range.

Bullseye and other competitive shooters often had (and still do) the weight adjusted for a very light crisp trigger pull, 2-3 pds, or under, if it could be had reliably. If a person shot revolver in bullseye the single action pull weight was often adjusted.

Regular folks who carried the 1911 either on the job or for self defense settled on 4-6 pds. It was the general advice from trainers and aficionados of the 1911. This was and is a good light weight compared to what was offered GIs for many years.

That's where the basic concept came from.

tipoc
 
For me, personally, it's not primarily about weight but about length of pull. A super-crisp trigger with no take-up but a 8-10 pound pull weight is likely as dangerous (or more so) for carry as a 6 pound trigger with a long, smooth DA pull.

I do not want to carry a firearm with a 4-5 pound single action-ish trigger. Unless it has an external safety. Even then, when I carried a 1911 I always trained to sweep the safety off as I "punched out" (extended my arms) after the draw. Still a risk during a high-stress draw situation.

So I can see the validity of saying "I prefer to carry a DA/SA gun over a Glock, because that first pull gives me much more tactile feedback." I cannot understand "I prefer to carry a Glock or XD, over a Sig" when the trigger differences are so slight.
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I agree with your sentiment, but that is just me. I can like one striker trigger over another, as far as the feel and ease of shooting. Of all the ones I have fired, I have not found one that I felt was particularly more safe from an ND during high stress situations. This is between Glock, Sig, M&P Shield, and an XD (admittedly I didn't actually fire the XD, I handled and dry-fired a friend's... it didn't feel much out of line of what most striker firearms felt like).

I like Khar's trigger pull. I'm a fan of DA/SA CZs and Sigs. I'm finally beginning to leave the ancient ways of the 1911, although I would not be uncomfortable using it as a duty carry so long as I trained at least a couple of times a month with it.
 
gnystrom said:
You are correct but in a very sudden SD situation that may be easier said than done. Adrenaline and body fluids suddenly running down your pants may trump keeping your finger off the trigger.
I would say the 1911 style would be of most concern for a sudden discharge. The traditional striker fired being the second and DA/SA being the last.
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I get quasi frustrated with this kind of thinking. Adrenaline is a thing sure, but that’s why we train. We train to overcome the effects of adrenaline. And oddly enough, a gun can’t fire if your finger isn’t on the trigger!

RULE # 3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target

RULE # 2 - Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy


If you’re carrying a handgun to defend yourself, defend yourself and be done with it. Otherwise, don’t draw! And don’t point your gun at anything if you do draw and things somehow diffuse before you pull the trigger - put some space between you and the threat and point it at the floor and keep your finger off the trigger! Keep. Your. Finger. Off. The. Trigger. Arg. We aren’t peacemakers trained to defuse situations by pointing a weapon at people to encourage behavior.

I don’t know... if you can’t follow rules 3 & 4 in spite of any adrenaline dump you may or may not be having, you might have become complacent in your training and need to revisit that.

You don’t need to be afraid of your firearm, but forgetting to respect it leads to disastrous outcomes. Especially if you succumb to your adrenaline. You can train around that.

Lol - well that’s my rant.

fs4rules.jpg
 
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I'm probably starting a fight here, and one that's been had before, but I'm not trying to. I'd like to get perspective from people who consider a certain weight/travel on a trigger to be "too light to safely carry."
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Whether or not a trigger is too light depends on the level of "goofball" within the person holding the weapon. I tend to leave trigger alone but have no concerns over a 3.5lb pull on a 1911 or a 5.5 pull on a Glock. I consider the issue to be more about the person and not the gun.


For instance, just this week in various forums (and once in person) I've heard the following triggers referred to as "too light to carry":

- Walther PPQ
- M&P
- Sig P320
- Sig P365
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ok, that is just silly.

Getting your finger inside the trigger guard on any of these during a high-stress draw will result in a discharge. And for that matter, under stress, a 13lb DA trigger may well also result in a discharge.
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I will politely disagree with every bit of that. I am not saying that it cant happen, I am saying that any proclamation suggesting that it WILL happen is simply not intellectually honest in my opinion. Accidental or Negligent discharge of a 13 pound trigger is so remote I have a hard time taking it serious. I will exclude the double trigger pull of someone who has lost control of a 500 hand cannon.


Can anyone enlighten me? I'm not here to mock anyone's choices. I just want to better understand the basis.
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enlightenment regarding this subject matter will likely come from training, not a discussion forum
 
I get quasi frustrated with this kind of thinking. Adrenaline is a thing sure, but that’s why we train. We train to overcome the effects of adrenaline. And oddly enough, a gun can’t fire if your finger isn’t on the trigger!
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I understand your point, however I don't get frustrated. This...

In a weapon retention scenario, one BTW that I have not had training for, the 1911 with its 4+ lb. trigger would make a non-commanded discharge a distinct possibility, in my view. LEO's here on the forum would be better able to discuss this issue, but it's a concern that I share with many civilians.

Fight scenarios have the ability to disrupt long practiced training in the valid issue of: "finger off the trigger"; and a heavier, though smooth, trigger may be a bit safer, in my opinion. Too, I'm of the belief that defensive encounters most likely, will be at extremely close range; one that will not require the precision that a lighter trigger affords. Heavier is better, and no real detriment, in that regard...YMMV.
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I have a friend who had to fight for his gun one time on duty. He later said he fully intended to shoot the guy, but by the time he finally got his gun completely free from the suspect and corrected his grip the suspect was already running and 5-6 yards away. He still aimed, but he recognized this would be a bad shoot and stopped himself. He came to the conclusion that he was quite grateful we are issued a Sig P220 with a DA/SA pull. Granted, this is a law enforcement perspective. Anyone should at least come to terms with the possibility you may have to fight for your gun, but I believe it is far more likely (like 10-fold) for cops.

enlightenment regarding this subject matter will likely come from training, not a discussion forum
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I do agree with this. If I thought Glocks were unsafe I would never recommend them. Train with what you choose. I do see benefits to a longer, slightly heavier trigger for carry guns. But I cede millions of cops carry Glocks and have zero issues as well.
 
I think you'll find that experienced shooters seem to shoot everything well. But pocket carry, IMHO, is the place where a long DA trigger is safer.
 
Trigger snobs/experts abound on the web, me I’m not as particular but I do believe I’m more accurate with a Glock trigger. So I ditched the DA/SA for the striker type guns and am well pleased.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When I was looking at putting Apex parts in my M+P,I made a thread about modifcations for carry.
Among other things,I put out the scenario of a low end 1911 being retrofitted with a Cylinder and Slide or EGW,or Wilson Duty and Carry Hammer,sear,etc kit.That thread went on for several pages.

No one ever really gave a conclusive,concrete answer.There are good reasons why.
What I did gain from that thread is a lot of factors to consider.

I believe it was Frank Ettin who suggested (paraphrased} that the local Law police or sheriff dept armorer would likely examine the firearm.In the case of a 1911,the armorer might have a standard of 4 lbs or more for a 1911 to be acceptable for a police officer to carry on duty.

At your trial,that armorer might testify "The defendants 1911 tested to have a 3 lb trigger pull,which our dept believes is irresponsible for an officer to carry" Or the armorer might say "At 6 lbs,this 1911 would be an authorized duty gun"


That's not a prediction or a promise. Its tough to nail down.


Another aspect that was not obvious to me ,but makes sense. If you are involved in an SD shoot,you will likely face a criminal trial and / or a civil trial. The point of the civil trial is to take a maximum amount of money.

The principle of squeezing blood from a turnip comes into play.

After the SD shooter has already given every available dime to his criminal defense lawyer,a cash prize the civil suit may go after is home owner accident insurance.

The plaintiff team may go far out of their way to convince the jury that your trigger pull caused an "accidental" SD shoot.


The $250,000 from the insurance company is more attractive than the $12.37 in the defendants checking account.


I'm not giving any specific advice.Just a couple of things to consider. Do what makes you happy.
 
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In contrast to practice drawing, or even tactical handgun competitions, how many people Here-- in civilian situations-- have ever encountered a sudden serious personal threat (or saw somebody else threatened) and quickly drew a handgun?
 
When carrying a DA/SA such as my SIG 220 or 226, I prefer a DA pull of 8-9 pbs, and a SA pull of no more than 2 lbs.

Once that first shot is fired DA, I'm not concerned with accidental discharge, just hitting the target.
 
The risk of unintentional discharge is something to consider seriously. It may be more probable than a lethal force encounter and it doesn't have to coincide with one. A lot of discharges occur when drawing or holstering a gun as anyone who carries might frequently do. Some people mitigate some of the risk by mounting and removing the holstered gun as a single piece, but even if a daily routine doesn't involve holstering and drawing, practice must necessarily do so.

Keeping the finger off the trigger and the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (rules #3 and #4) are good practice, but some discharges occur because of snagged clothing, holster parts, or foreign objects. The fact is, some competition and duty guns are best used in a competition or duty holster and when wearing a competition or duty uniform. There's a reason those uniforms are tight-fitting, aren't bulky and don't have folds or flaps. Discharges are one concern, but so is the clothing interfering with the gun and the shooter's actions in any way.

Most people who use striker-fired guns that were designed for military and law enforcement duty, accept that the gun and holster work together as a system. They understand the gun is not safe to carry in a pocket or stuck in their waistband without a holster. I would go farther and say that guns like the Glock are designed to work not only with a holster but also with a uniform. They were duty guns designed for duty holsters, but so many people started carrying them inside the waistband that it's become impractical to expect people to accept the assertion they were not designed for that. They weren't. They never were and have never been adapted to that. They just got adopted for that practice regardless of how ill-suited they are for it.
 
I lack the experience that many on this forum have, so take my opinion for it's price tag. A light trigger warrants a safety. A heavy, long pull is the only way I'll go without it(safety). I have both. The one I carry for defensive purposes in public is a long DA pull with no safety. I have a DA/SA that I'll carry sometimes when out away from crowds and civilization, but it's either cocked, safety on or heavy, long DA pull. I, personally, like the Xtra step of the safety or the long, stiff pull to keep me in check. That is a big part of why I haven't ventured into the world of strikers without a safety. I do use my safeties, so they are practiced with. Call me dumb or inexperienced or unrealistic or whatever....but I carry for my safety and the way I do it is as much a concern as doing it, itself.
 
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