Trespassing...

"Now, with this little tidebit of knowledge, do you still feel that I was wrong in what I wrote? I did at least give them the benefit to leave the property and would only fire if they moved toward me. You see, with a man who has a history of violent assault, and the girlfriend with a history of assault, I felt that my response was justified."

No, Wayne I must respectfully disagree with you and even more so given the latest facts. Why would you feel the need to go out alone and possibly outnumbered and expose yourself to a possible deadly encounter. I would call the police and wait patiently in the safety of my house for them to respond and remove these characters from my property. I would charge them with trespassing and add to their criminal record. That would make their probation officer happy as well. This is not the old west. Your tax money partly goes for funding a law enforcement agency to take care of these things so you don't have to. Put the liability on them and let them take care of these situations for you. Now don't get me wrong. I am in favor of firearm ownership, self defense, and the sanctity and security of ones home and property. I believe if someone comes onto your property armed looking for you it is time to act to protect yourself. If someone breaks into your home while you are inside, it is time to act to protect yourself. But, if you look out the window and see a drunk, bum, or any undesirable person hanging out on your property. Call the police if it is going to require anything more than a friendly reminder to move along. I just don't agree with pulling a gun on someone who is not armed just for being in my yard or on my property. Now, am I going to check things out unarmed? No. And Wayne, if I had neighbors like yours I would watch them with both eyes and be armed always. But I would try to avoid putting myself in a bad position if at all possible.

"One thing to at least consider, is when we wait for our life to be in eminant danger of serious bodily harm or death - it's probably too late in a lot of cases... What's the definition of this anyway? "

Well that unfortunately is the way it is when you are in a defensive mode like the good guys almost always are. The guy in the offensive mode knows what he is going to do, may have planned it and rehearsed it. You have to be able to recognize and anticipate dangerous behavior before it is too late. No doubt you are behind the reactionary curve, but that is just the way it is for the good guys.

Firearms have their place and that is usually very near my hand, but the smart call is always to avoid a problem and call the cops if you can. I know I will hear a few of the old, I called the cops and they didn't do anything or they just came and hassled me or whatever. Call them and if you are not satisfied with the service you got, call a supervisor and give them some feedback. Otherwise, I see some of you guys making a bunch of trouble for yourselves needlessly.
 
No that's YOUR idea! I was close to shooting a tresspasser(property posted and fenced) that exhibited bizarre behavior and who advanced on me( an senior citizen) while I repeatedly retreated and loudly objected to his assault on me ( not battery but the definition of assault) , ignored my -plain and resonable commands and put me in fear of my life.
What in the blue blazes weapon could have this guy had? Shaking hands wth someone who doesn't want to is the oldest sucker trick in the book . You, sir are the kind of trusting simpleton that makes a good statistic!
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You made the decision to shoot a guy who you had no reason to believe was armed, for tresspassing. You were already pulling the trigger before the guy was even in your house, garage or "gun room". You made no attempt to retreat into your house, garage or gun room, and if I'm thinking of the right post, you had "back-up" there, and a big dog who bites strangers. As a matter of fact, you came out of your "gun room with the humongous gun safe" to confront the guy. The guy was approaching you, in your words, as if to shake hands and thank you for a party he though he was at. You thought the guy was "still drunk" and you felt "safe and in control" and were so afraid for your life that YOU had to restrain your combat experienced buddy from "getting in the guy's face". I really don't care what you do, but like I said, I'll buy a ticket to your fundraiser.....If those were the facts presented at a trial, the best you could hope from me was a hung jury, if not a trip right to prison or at least probation for manslaughter if I was on the jury. How did you "repeatedly retreat". I don't think I read anything in your "testimony" about repeatedly retreating.

I guess I'm just a "trusting simpleton" but somehow I've managed MANY similar shoot/don't shoot situtations without having to shoot an unarmed crazy person, getting hurt myself, or winding up in prison.
 
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Once I went "trespassing" (on public land) in somebody's marijuana patch.
The individual took it upon himself to shoot at me.
I took it upon myself to return the greeting in what I felt to be the appropriate manner.
He went to jail.
I didn't.

It's all in how the law looks at it.

Needless to say, I dont go into the woods anymore without a knife for the reptiles and a gun for the two legged variety of reptiles.
 
Jack Malloy,

What part of the country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That's a scary possibility. I go hiking whenever I can, but usually leave the old ruger at home because my home state of California isn't terribly gun friendly.

I wonder if there's a good way to figure out where drug operations are likely to be out in the woods, and avoid them? Any law enforcement TFL members know about this problem?
 
eka,

You're right, I guess that you've lived here before, knowing that Lane County covers about 500 miles, with about 6 or so deputies.

You see eka, we are of different "stock". I'm guessing you're city, while I am country. I can't afford to have everything stolen or broken that I have in the back to wait an hour or more for someone to show up to "save the day". If you can, more power to you. I can't.

Sure, I could "go and hide" but why should I? You see, in the country you don't have all those good things like LEO's showing up within 10 to 20 minutes, not to mention that if they are in my yard, it's not to ask for a cup of sugar, they are out with ill intent.

You see eka, maybe before you get into thinking that everyplace is the same as where you are and everyone should do as you would, you sit back and rethink the fact that not everyone has the same options as you.

You see eka, if any of those people are in my yard I know that they are here for doing me harm. They've already told me that they would do so if they got the chance (I guess they get pissed off when I call the LEO's on them) and in this state, in which we are still fighting for our Rights, we have NO duty to retreat. You know, we have the Right to actually protect our selves as well as our property. And I believe in that.

Now, getting back to the original post, if someone that I didn't know was in my yard, I have no desire to "blast away" at them. In fact, I will be the one coming out to offer help if needed and to inquire why they are in the yard. If I get the response that most people would give, I will be willing to help them out any way I can, I've already proven that. If they are here for ill intent, there is no way that I can make it to my door and close it before they are on me and I don't think that yanking out my cell and start to dial 911 is going to scare them off.

So, with trespassers, I go out armed with both gun and cell. If they need help they are more then welcome to my phone, if not, I am not willing to try to snivel back into my abode and await help that maybe minutes, or hours away.

Wayne
 
Wayne,

I understand where you are coming from. I have lived in both city and country. I know the response time in some counties. The original post was pretty broad, "If someone is on your land, trespassing, but does not brandish a gun, are you justified in your actions?". What you have Wayne, is not just a simple trespass, but a clear and identifiable threat. A sort of feud between a law abiding neighbor and thug neighbors. From what I gather they are mad at you because you refuse to lay down and put up with their criminal behavior. They have threatened to do you harm. Your situation is much different than a lot of other situations where a bum, drunk, teenager, or magazine salesman comes onto your property. You know what you are dealing with the moment you lay eyes on those people. However, in most of the other scenarios in which you find someone on your property who you don't know and have to figure out what the appropriate response should be. You know what you are dealing with in regards to your neighbors, but these other situations are some times obvious risks, unknown risks or maybe no risk.
 
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That happened years ago when I lived in Lexington Kentucky.
My friends and I used to go out to the woods to target shoot in an area ironically where most local LE went to shoot too. Sometimes we would all shoot together and I once one a steak dinner when I qualified on the then Police Course with a .44 magnum using full loads, and had time to spare. Them was the golden years, LOL...
Turns out, somebody new to the area decided it would make a great place to plant MJ. He didn't know that local shooters called the place Hogans Alley.
When I made it to a phone and called the police within minutes the area was crawling with officers, some of whom knew me and had gone shooting with me. In no time at all a scraggly marijuana farmer with a .22 was hauled off to the jug. He had no idea that every major target shooter in three counties used that stretch of public land to go plinking.
This is still a concern to have, albiet not as much as it used to be.
Back in 99, the town I was living in had a standoff with police after two MJ growers stumbled into each others secret gardens and ripped each other off and got to shooting over it.
But back in the 80s, some MJ farmers were bad about rigging up booby traps in their fields. One of my friends has an old sawed off shotgun we came upon one time that had been rigged up as a booby trap. It rusted so bad that the gun did not go off when we took it out of the trip wires and tried to fire it.
Bout the same time in a different part of the state a small girl was hurt bad by one of these booby traps and the pot farmer wound up serving a large stretch for that. Prior to that lots of older folks in rural areas would set traps in their houses to catch burglars but the word got out that was a no no.
I live in a different state now, but in all honesty in Appalachia, be it KY, WV, Tennessee or parts of Ohio, I would not go into the woods unarmed because of the possibility of stumbling onto a pot farmers operation. These guys are closer to the Reservoir Dogs than Cheech and Chong fellas.

>>>What part of the country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That's a scary possibility. I go hiking whenever I can, but usually leave the old ruger at home because my home state of California isn't terribly gun friendly.

I wonder if there's a good way to figure out where drug operations are likely to be out in the woods, and avoid them? <<<
 
"Seems that the general firearm owning public believes that shooting someone who is trespassing is a justified act."

Where did you get that? :confused: Did you believe that silly old joke about the sign that said,"Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again." :rolleyes:
 
Shootinstudent

Oh that it were that simple, to predict where the "fields o' plenty" are, that is. Remember that these guys are trying to place them where they won't be found, so you can play the odds that it'll be someplace remote. The DEA fly guys tell me that marijuana plants are easily spotted from the air and they do occasional fly-overs of the rural areas around here. Sometimes the growers will place their plants randomly interspersed with weeds along a creek bank, etc., to make them more difficult to spot. The only rule of thumb I can give you is that the growers usually booby trap the perimeters of their plots, so if you stumble on a field of it, act like you're in a mine field ('cause maybe you are), turn about and retrace your exact steps out of there examining the ground of each step before you put your foot down, and don't touch anything. I attended an explosives and booby trap seminar a few years ago, and they demonstrated one really nasty device that was favored by Calif. growers in the late 70's & 80's. It consisted of a piece of 2x4 with an "L" bracket screwed to it. A couple of hose clamps held a 6" piece of 3/4" diameter steel pipe to the other leg of the bracket. On the other side of the 2x4 was a Victor's rat trap. A hole was drilled through the 2x4 directly under where the killing bar would strike, and out the other side dead center in the pipe. The pipe is loaded with a 12 ga. shell and a 10 penny nail is placed in the hole for a firing pin. Some fine monofiliment fishing line is tied to the trap's trigger and strung across a path. Trip the line and the trap goes off driving the nail into the shotgun shell's primer, and... boom! :eek: There were lots of other ingenius devices there too used to maime and kill. After that seminar, I walked in the woods feeling like I was on point in Viet Nam. Not cool!
 
"I attended an explosives and booby trap seminar a few years ago, and they demonstrated one really nasty device that was favored by Calif. growers in the late 70's & 80's. "

Maybe it's just me, but ideas, concepts, and intelligence gathered and presented at LE training seminars is probably not appropriate for internet forums. I'm just surmising this info. came from LE training. Anyway, sounds like a great way to give somebody a stupid idea. :rolleyes:
 
Eka

That would be true... IF info on this and other nasty surprises weren't readily available on the Internet. (do a search on booby traps and see what I mean). Hell, you can get the plans to build a nuclear bomb if you want them! But trust me; there are other little secrets I have no plans on divulging ;) .
 
Why waste perfectly good ammo on trespassers? What are they gonna do to me? Steal my desert? If someone wants a piece of my land, by all means take it as long as it contains some cactus or a nest of ants or infernal grass that can't be killed or whatever else irritates me and gets in the way of my trike riding pleasure. If someone takes an inch off the top there is still what, 20 miles of solid rock before it hits magma. So, an inch is not all that. Besides, the wind puts it back real soon.
 
A lot of good questions to be prepared to answer when it comes to the use of deadly force. I remember a scene from the Clint Eastwood movie "The Unforgiven":

Bill Munny: Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin'.
Bill Munny: We all got it comin', kid.
 
Maybe like I say, it is just me and not anything wrong with it, but as far as I am concerned I would just as soon let them get the info. somewhere else. I know it's out there; I just wouldn't feel comfortable putting it out there.
 
Terry

That shell/rattrap stuff is old news...we were doing that in junior high school.
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Yes it is, or I wouldn't be posting it. Junior High School? Uh... Just what, exactly, were you doing with it? :confused: ;) :D
 
Making booby traps, of course. I grew up with Gung-Ho Magazine, the old SWAT, Soldier of Fiction, Mack Bolan, Hawker, Remo Williams, and Dan Track!
 
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