Training with flashlights, WMLs, etc.

The best thing to do when checking a warehouse at night is to not to it alone. There's nothing in there that is worth the extreme risk you will be taking whether the lights are on or off.
 
I have though it unwise to have a light on the gun and in most case's even a strong flash light. There's some new light's that will mess with your eyes if you look into them. If you have the light on the gun and it doesn't mess with the eye sight, seem's to me that makes a pretty good target! If you have a hand held and point in front of you, seem's to me the same problem. But if you hold the light an arms length away from your body, you effectively take away the obvious target. Just my though.
 
Why would I need to check out a warehouse? The only three buildings I need to check out are my home, the garage, and my shop. The home is the only one with three doors and any windows and that's where I sleep. If I'm awake I know if someone is coming before they can get in and if I'm asleep they will wake me up getting in. There is always someone in the house. I'm not a good target.
 
I have though it unwise to have a light on the gun and in most case's even a strong flash light. There's some new light's that will mess with your eyes if you look into them. If you have the light on the gun and it doesn't mess with the eye sight, seem's to me that makes a pretty good target! If you have a hand held and point in front of you, seem's to me the same problem. But if you hold the light an arms length away from your body, you effectively take away the obvious target. Just my though.
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You're going to want a light strong enough to positively identify what someone has in their hands and determine if it's a weapon. That's going to be a critical factor in determining if and when you should shoot.

With many modern flashlights it isn't going to matter if you hold it at arms length or not. The reflected light is going to illuminate you enough for a bad guy to see anyway. This is especially true indoors where light is reflected off the floor, walls, and ceiling. Why handicap yourself in a high stress situation by forcing yourself to shoot one handed? Or, perhaps you won't have to shoot. Maybe you're holding an intruder at gunpoint and now you have to juggle your flashlight and cell phone while you call 911.

A WML is not for every situation which is why I advocate two lights. Use the hand held light for general use for when the situation hasn't reached the level of deadly force yet. If and when I draw I will transition from hand held to WML if possible.

For most concealed carry weapons a WML isn't practical because it adds weight and bulk. It's more practical to have a concealable weapon and a small light.

Ultimately it's about increasing your odds in whatever situation you find yourself in. Inside the home the advantages of a WML are undeniable. On the street you may have to make do with another technique. Train with both.
 
Here is an interesting video showing the use of three different lights by a police officer in a deadly encounter: link The officer uses his vehicle's headlamps, a weapon mounted light and a handheld light.
 
Anyone reading the above will conclude that I don't think much of weapon-mounted lights. Now I am seeing what to me is even sillier, the head mounted light, like the old-time miner's lamp. This really saves the BG trouble; no guesswork - just shoot at the light and put a bullet right through the cop's forehead. (Oh, I forgot about that superlight that is 200 times brighter than the sun and renders anyone within 50 miles instantly helpless.)

Jim
 
I've been reading the responses to my OP with great interest; thanks to everyone for the interesting reading.

I should say that I have no illusions about trying to clear my own home if the scenario became a reality. If I had home invaders my Plan Alpha is to hole up in my bedroom with my guest(s) if any, and point my trusty mossy at the center of the door, in the dark.

But if for some reason, if I had to move around the house with BGs in it, these posts are giving me a lot to think about.

At this point, I think a WML may end up on at least one of my HD guns, but I'm still on the fence about it, as it seems like its facility is pretty limited.
 
Headlamps and helmet lights are never meant to be used in a combat context, they are almost exclusively utility lights. The only exception are IR lights meant to be used with NVDs.

And TBH I think everyone needs one, sure you might not need a super bright one, or even a super durable one like a Surefire, but I am sure everyone can think of a time when you need light while both hands are busy. I personally used my headlamp a lot in preparation for Hurricane Irma, and for the few hours that my lights were off.
 
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At this point, I think a WML may end up on at least one of my HD guns, but I'm still on the fence about it, as it seems like its facility is pretty limited.
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Rangerrich99,

WMLs are something that someone needs to actually work with to see the utility. Try opening a door, clearing a malfunction, or even shooting with a handheld light. It is problematic at best. Sure with lanyards and light rings you can get over some of the limitations but they are still awkward.

And then there is shooting with a handheld light. All the methods that involve shooting with a handheld light, even ones purpose built for that purpose, they all suck. You will lose a good portion of your stability and recoil management. That is just with handguns, it gets even worse with long guns. There is a reason why people who actually studied combat as their jobs (people wearing special colored berets) were hose clamping lights to their guns long before weapon lights became a thing.
 
There is a reason why people who actually studied combat as their jobs (people wearing special colored berets) were hose clamping lights to their guns long before weapon lights became a thing.
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This. This why some responses truly stump me.
 
I'm stumped as well. We have more people than ever before in military/LE who are going into harms way every day and disproving the theoretical disadvantages of WML's. People with actual real world experience downrange. Yet, the naysayers persist.
 
What advantages a WML might have for special forces units, I still think that for an individual cop checking out a report of a burglary or a domestic, the idea is silly. But it is not I or others here who are promoting WML's for police use in "civilian" situations, it it the "tactical" people who see every police patrol as a battle against ISIS or some other group of heavily armed thugs, and the companies whose ads in the gunzines show heavily armed police in every conceivable situation. I have to wonder how many ordinary police actually encounter thousands of fanatical terrorists on the streets of our cities, while patrolling alone or with another officer. If that situation is as common as the WML fans would lead us to believe, every cop should have an M-16 and a dozen magazines, plus a lot more training than we now give to our "local friendly cops."

The fact is that, while some police/military units may need WMLs and other gear, the makers sell primarily to the SWAT team wannabes, teenagers who fantasize about shooting it out with ISIS and buy the black pajamas and other "tactical" gear they wear to parade around at the mall.

OK, I am unreasonable. BUT, how many of those who have responded actually belong to an official, organized, SWAT team (or equivalent) and have practiced as part of their training, the use of WMLs and other equipment?

Not what you read, what you heard, what was in some magazine. What did you do yourself or train to do as part of an official, organized unit?

Jim
 
Yes, you are being unreasonable you insist that you will only accept an opinion from someone that was in a SWAT or similar unit. Why should I accept your opinion? Do you have any training on this subject, have you ever used it in context?

I can easily answer that, no, no you don't. You didn't even know what a headlamp was used for. Here's a hint nothing to do with combat. Surefire makes them for the SAR, climbing, and other markets that need a hard use headlamp for utility works. But if you were involved in any of the communities that use weapon lights in any context in the last 10-20 years you would've known that.

So you have no idea what you are talking about and yet you are passing your opinion as gospel. A text book example of the dunning kruger effect.
 
In my first post in this series, I said that my training and experience is outdated, and asked about current practice with no real answers. But I know enough to know that a lot of the "tactical" stuff in the magazines and on the web sites is plain BS. If those lights are not meant to be worn or put on weapons in combat, why do the makers' ads show them being used that way? Not by cave explorers, but by models dressed as SWAT team members.

I never saw any officer with a rig like that, but as I have said, my training is years old. But that does not mean I have never fired a gun, something I strongly suspect the mall ninjas have not done either.

I asked a simple question - what experience have the "experts" who post here actually had? PPGMD has attacked me but has not answered that question. If you are not a member of a SWAT team, if you have had no training, if you have never been a police officer, then I submit that it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Bartholomew Roberts, OK, but if I am going from a lighter room into a dark room, I am silhouetted against the light. Even if my own light is enough to completely blind a BG in the darker room, he can still shoot when he sees my light, and I am dead. And he has the advantage, in spite of (or because of ) my light and the doorway. He knows where I am; I don't know where he is.

Jim
 
Show me a picture of such a model? All the marketing materials I've seen of headlamps being used in a military context have shown it in a utility roles. Like a mechanic working inside a vehicle, or a medic treating a wounded person. I know for a fact that Surefire doesn't even include headlamps in their tactical catalog. The only head mounted lights are the helmet lights are that little low powered utility lights around 15 lumens IIRC.

So someone that actually has training on modern techniques, which included force on force scenarios being on the receiving end of each technique (they don't want you to take their word that the techniques work) has no clue. But a person that has no modern training, and even admits is telling the people that have training that they don't have a clue. Well then this explains why The Firing Line is basically dead.
 
James K said:
Bartholomew Roberts, OK, but if I am going from a lighter room into a dark room, I am silhouetted against the light. Even if my own light is enough to completely blind a BG in the darker room, he can still shoot when he sees my light, and I am dead. And he has the advantage, in spite of (or because of ) my light and the doorway. He knows where I am; I don't know where he is.
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That's the point. Someone in the dark room already knows you are there whether you use a light or not because you are backlighted. He can see your silhouette and can probably make out a weapon if you are carrying one and he is a target-ID sensitive kind of person.

Without a light, you cannot see him or know whether that gaping dark maw in the night is empty or staring back at you. In almost any situation where you are backlit, a brief use of light lets you see - and while it may not stun someone on the receiving end senseless as in the ads, 500 lumens in a dark room will often disrupt the OODA loop of someone sitting there waiting for a backlit victim to appear in my experience.

Now, you don't have to have a WML for that; but it sure does make a difference in time on target in those scenarios.

*I have two low-light training experiences. My first was live fire on an outdoor range and while I certainly learned a lot, it wasn't until I did some force on force inside a building in low light that I really started to appreciate some of the difficulties in that scenario. And I am still very much a novice with light use.
 
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James K said:
I never saw any officer with a rig like that, but as I have said, my training is years old. But that does not mean I have never fired a gun, something I strongly suspect the mall ninjas have not done either.
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NJSP recently switched to Glock 19s with, I believe, Surefire X300s. Not an option, across the board issue weapon. That is approximately 2,500 L/E officers.

A good number of agencies are making the transition to sidearms with lights. Takes a lot to switch an agency over to anything, considering it is a government entity... asking for a good amount of money to do so. Guns, holsters, lights, ammo, training... even if they are using existing sidearms, new holsters, lights, and training for all officers.

Whether a weapon light is a good idea may be a hot topic (I say yes, but with a traditional flashlight, as well), but when it comes down to it, if you can implement one, you never are going to say I wish I didn't have it in a shooting. Rather have and not use than need and not have.
 
OK, I am unreasonable. BUT, how many of those who have responded actually belong to an official, organized, SWAT team (or equivalent) and have practiced as part of their training, the use of WMLs and other equipment?


Jim
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I have. I have used WMLs to excellent effect not only in training but in real world situations. In fact, not only has a WML saved my bacon but also a person that who turned out NOT to be an imminent hostile threat. A WML is not as much of a liability as you continue to assert.
 
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