Training question?

[Erik]

This is probably a thread drift. But it is your thread.

Yes, he excelled despite his poor training. Law enforcement training circa the time frame he received it coupled with the target training equaling "poor." It was Jim Cirillo, not Jim Cirillo's training, in a nut shell.

And... his second career was as a trainer; first for the feds, then later for the private sector. Where (again) his niche was a bit more than relating how "competitive training" coupled with basic police training can carry the day; "a bit more" being a gross understatement. He was practically an icon for year at FLETC, instructing there and being involved in course developement from 1976-1991 iirc.

If you want insight into what Jim Cirillo thought about winning gun fights, look to the training programs he had a hand in, whether branded his own or some government agency's programs.

Research it. They didn't/don't resemble repackaged target training programs:

An emphasis on mindset.
An emphasis on tactics.
A sight continuum, though he didn't call it that.
Downed defender/officer drills.
Gun handling skills.
Emphasis on integration of skill sets.
Etc.

He's been described as dated but with a wealth of general knowledge. I recommend focusing on the word "wealth" and using the word "dated" to place some of his work in context.

Note he's not exactly the average gamer or target shooter:
http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?bcpid=452320104&bclid=459256134&bctid=1155072970

If you think a warrior like Jim Cirillo wouldn't approve of the modern advances in the field of training, advances built on his work, well... I humbly submit that you'd be mistaken.

 

[Erik]

Which brings us back to: Yes, end of any serious discussion.

You should invest in quality training. Quality training is often relative to the shooter, and vice versa. But... You'll be selling yourself short to avoid it because you might be beyond it. "It" being defined as a given course. Because you'll get far more from instruction than you will from media. Invest in classes, and once xompetency is achieved an proven, the media can help flesh things out.

 

[threegun]

Erik, Like you, I am confident that Cirillo would have taken kindly to advanced training offered these days. I'm not arguing that this stuff doesn't help make one better. I'm simply rebutting the line of thinking here on TFL by some that only FOF training will suffice in gunfight preparation.

It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.

See here Glenn takes a jab at me. I used Cirillo because of the weight given his statements by all the gunfights he survived. He claims competition was sufficient...so who am I and better yet who is Glenn to say otherwise.

Also you keep on saying that Cirillo survived and excelled despite his training when the man himself said that he survived because of his competitive experience. He clearly articulated how frightened he was making him human. He experienced a mental phenomenon that many of us will experience in some form on judgment day. He went into auto pilot mode and reverted to his competitive experience which was enough to carry the day.....17 times.....and against multiple foes on occasion.

I'm all for more advanced training. I started this post to figure out if it would be worth the money because I already use advanced tactics in practice. It seems that most of you feel that I would benefit a bunch. Based on the limited things posted I think I'll benefit but not enough to justify the costs. An excess of 2000 bucks with ammo and travel expenses.

 

[Erik]

FOF the crucible of serious training; affording trainers and practitioners the opportunity to test and evaluate a broad spectrum of skill sets, abilities, and assumptions before it is written into police and after action reports. Many a participant has been forced to accept realities they denied or where unaware of, and adjust as necessary. Many a trainer has beenf orced to acecpt the realities they denied or where unaware of about what they were teaching; some adjust, some do not. It is the scrimaging of the training world prior to the actual game, in a sense.

On Cirillo: There is much more to Jim Cirillo's notions of what makes for an adequately prepared gunfighter than participation in comptetive shooting. Again, if you want insight into what Jim Cirillo thought about winning gun fights, look to the training programs he had a hand in, whether branded his own or some government agency's programs.

Look, I understand the realities of financial constraints, and the thought process that you're going through: evaluating if the gains will be worth the expenditures of time and money. Most people here do. It comes back to the net - it is almost impossible to recommend trainers and courses without an understanding of where a given person is at mentally, physically, knolwedge, skill, and abilty wise. (And that's just the half of it.)

 

[pax]

I used Cirillo because of the weight given his statements by all the gunfights he survived. He claims competition was sufficient...so who am I and better yet who is Glenn to say otherwise.

Cirillo NEVER claimed competition was sufficient.

He claimed it was necessary.

There is a huge difference between those two.

Jim devoted the greater part of his life to training others how to survive lethal encounters. He did not do this for the joy of it (though he was one of the most joyful people I ever met). He did it because he thought professional training was a necessary and essential compoenent of equipping people to survive criminal attacks.

pax

 

[bds32]

I think a school like Thunder Ranch would be worth the money. You may know alot already but you will definitely pick up more useful things.

But, if you never go, just keep training hard yourself and learning from other resources. I would imagine that there are alot great shooters out there that have not attended schools.

 

[threegun]

Pax,

Cirillo NEVER claimed competition was sufficient

You are correct I miss spoke. He did specifically cite his competitive experience with helping him not only survive but win his first gun fight. That would suggest to me that competition was sufficient in this case for a man to win a gun fight. I'm horrible with writing as you can see.

He also said that the stress of shooting competitively made shooting for life and limb much easier.


Erik, When you attend a FOF course do you think you might die? Do you think you might be seriously injured? How then can we expect FOF to rise to the pressure of real life? Is FOF similar to sparring in boxing & karate? If it is similar then it wouldn't rise to the level of competition (for me anyway) and definitely wouldn't rise to the level of a real fight.

I was always more nervous before a competition than any sparring practice. I can't imagine FOF being opposite. At a shooting match I get so nervous that I literally have to used the bathroom as I wait my turn. I didn't feel that nervous when we would run flurries in Karate......when half the class attacks one student. I did get the crud beat out of me though.

 

[threegun]

BDS32, Thanks.....I'm gonna keep training until my bones won't let me LOL.

 

[Erik]

3G,
FOF training runs the gamut from mild to extreme, aimed at students across a wide specrum of physical and technical ability, as with most other training disciplines. Matching yourself to the environment is just as important here as with any other dicipline.

Just a taste of the types of things which help seperate the theoretical, or the gaming, from the practical. Conversely, just the types of things which prove the theoretical and the gaming as practical.

Every one of these could include non-lethal marking weapons, though they don't necessarily have to, by the way.

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BpEzI7mleY

http://www.usshootingacademy.com/training_course.aspx?id=9

But... I understand that gun-centric folks frequently echew such stuff, and it certainly isn't for everyone.

 

[threegun]

If I was a LEO I would definitely dabble deeper into MMA.

The little bit of training I get now is from my kids (which they get from karate class one night a week). The last session my 12 year old accidentally elbowed me on the lower eyebrow ridge producing a grape sized knot that soon turned into a shiner. I was made fun of for a week. Daddy beaten up by a 12 year old. Really it was accidental.

 

[Erik]

Don't under estimate those kids. My boys figured out high-low ambushes and my back hasn't been quite the same since.

 

[threegun]

I have finally figured out that I simply cannot play MMA ground games with them. I have been kicked in the groin, elbowed in the eye, knee on fingers, and the worst was a knee to the cheek bone. Forty year old body takes days for the aching to stop.

I wrestled a coworker and we ended up paying for a new showcase. It was pretty close despite me giving up 15 years and 30 pounds. I was hurting for a week.....he was ready for round two the next day LOL.

Definitely fun but my body just can't Handel the rigors of it.

 

[David Armstrong]

In reply to david armstrong... Is it really wrong or were your techniques just differant.

Some of both. Lots of times the issue is just "different." But sometimes yes, it is just flat "wrong" to do it that way. You may still be able to accomplish the goal, but it is still the wrong way. My $.02.

 

[David Armstrong]

Can you give a brief listing of what you learned at that first session and what they corrected you on?

As it has been 20+ years and lots of classes, probably not. Some things that really leap out, though, without actually remembering if it was first classes or later on, are a much better draw stroke with the handgun, for example, and a lot of rifle manipulation things with the long gun.

Would you have felt the same if you already knew and practiced the curriculum of that first school?

Probably, but that is speculation. How would you know the curriculum and proper practice of the school without going to the school? Contrary to what many seem to think, reading a book, watching a video, or talking about it with somebody else is not the same.

I can do it all ....

Given your obviously limited knowledge of DGUs and tactics as demonstrated in previous posts, you can't do it all, etc. etc. That is my point. I could do it all. That is, I thought I could do it all until I found out that I really couldn't do it all. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize how much more there is to learn.

The late Jim Cirillo did just fine in gunfights with only competition and lowly Police Pistol Combat at that.

That is a gross misstatement. Jim did far more than "only competition" to prepare himself for gunfights. Competition was only one part of the picture, not the only part.

I have noticed however that if you don't have FOF training you are considered not prepared for a gun fight. I disagree with this as did legendary gun fight survivor Cirillo.

You have this outrageous habit of taking things out of context and/or adding 1+1 and getting 97. Jim did NOT disagree with FoF training, he advocated it quite strongly. And while they didn't have the tools to do things the way we do now, Jim also trained using the techniques available at the time to simulate shooting incidents as closely as possible.

 

[threegun]

David, My point was that Jim credited his gunfight success with his competitive experience . If he was successful in a gunfight and felt that his success was due to his competitive experience then Jim could not have thought that only FOF trained fellows are prepared for a gun fight. He had to have thought that competitive training was enough to win a gunfight. Since it carried him through.

Jim also looked for every edge he could and there is no doubt that he would push for higher training.

Given your obviously limited knowledge of DGUs and tactics as demonstrated in previous posts, you can't do it all,

With all due respect David you have no idea of what I know or don't know with regard to tactics. Just because I don't allow statistics to guide my every move, something you obviously can't resist doing, doesn't mean I don't understand them. I never argued against your stats only your religious adherence to those stats. BTW since the stats you tout suggest that I will probably never need to stop a determined attacker, you should be consistent and say that I don't need the training. The same stats that cause you to recommend puny calibers as primary.

When I say I can do it all it doesn't mean I have done it all. Deal with what was said not with what you think was said.....sound familiar? You name the firearm excersise....guess what David I can do it.

Thanks for the tip on gun manipulation and draw stroke.

 

[threegun]

Also I didn't say Cirillo disagreed with FOF training. My nasty habit of understanding what was said instead of what you think was said is rubbing off. I said that Cirillo would disagree that one needed FOF to be prepared for a gunfight. Cirillo said competition shooter made great stakeout men because when the poop hit the fan they knew how to shoot under pressure. He credited comp shooting with gunfight survival.

 

[David Armstrong]

David, My point was that Jim credited his gunfight success with his competitive experience .

And my point is that your point is not correct. Jim credited part of his gunfight success to competition, not the whole thing. His competition probably wouldn't have made much difference if he also hadn't practiced a lot, had the right mindset, and several other factors.

With all due respect David you have no idea of what I know or don't know with regard to tactics.

With all due respect, I've seen what you have said and advocated hear and in other places, and I base my comments on that. If you actually do have a understanding of the issues I have not seen it reflected in your writings.

Just because I don't allow statistics to guide my every move, something you obviously can't resist doing, doesn't mean I don't understand them.

Sigh. For about the 100th time, no, I don't allow statisitics to guide my every move. They are one factor that I consider in my decision making process. For you to continue to state otherwise is dishonest.

you should be consistent and say that I don't need the training.

Whether you need the training or not is something I have not addressed. I have said that you would learn something by taking the training. I have been consistent in suggesting that you need to learn something about this stuff if you are going to talk about it so much.

The same stats that cause you to recommend puny calibers as primary.

Sigh. Once again, for about the 100th time, I do not recommend puny calibers as primary. For you to continue to say otherwise is dishonest.

When I say I can do it all it doesn't mean I have done it all. Deal with what was said not with what you think was said.....sound familiar?

Ummm, I almost hate to do this, but I did not say that you had done it all, I said that you can't do it all. Deal with what was said, not what you think was said.

You name the firearm excersise....guess what David I can do it.

Well gosh, I guess that settles it. Pax was right: "Save your money. You wouldn't learn a thing in class. Guys who go in knowing it all never do."

I said that Cirillo would disagree that one needed FOF to be prepared for a gunfight.

And again you would be wrong. Jim strongly supported FoF as gunfight prep. Again, you might want to quit trying to use little bits and snippets of things when you make these claims of yours and instead try to get the full picture.

He credited comp shooting with gunfight survival.

As several people have already told you, that is not correct. Competition was only one notch in a big wheel. For you to continue to claim these beliefs and ideas as Jim's that he would strongly disagree with is worse than dishonest, and is frankly rather insulting to those of us who actually knew him and talked with him and were trained by him.

 

[mikejonestkd]

Just spent 15 minutes reading this thread from start to finish.

My advice? Save your money.

Pax said it best on page one, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to the OP at all. After over 20 years of teaching the martial arts I recognize the OP's mindset. he already has the tools and mindset that he feels he needs.

 

[pax]

Closed for deteriorating civility -- plus the thread has reached the point of diminishing returns.

Thanks for the good conversation, everyone.

pax