Training question?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Let's try this a different way. Drills vs. simulation training seems to be a hangup here.

So you are going to be a fireman. I've read about all kinds of simulation training and stress - only done the FOF stuff however but the idea is the same.

Reading about fireman:

1. They need to learn the equipment very well. They can watch videos and hear lectures on the equipment.
2. They practice with the equipment on the equivalent of paper punching targets.
3. THEN, they go into simulated fires under smoke pressure, heat, noise, confusion, interacting with other fireman, panicked victims, injured folks.

So does this suggest that all the gun handling drills are not sufficient if one really is concerned about the higher end of gun fight survival?

Why do the military and police all go to shoot houses, FOF, FATS, etc. ?

Because drills aren't enough. Why do FOGs really interested in the issues manage to do significant FOF (granted it costs) besides just techniques classes and competitions (which are very useful) - it is because the stress innoculation, seeing yourself screw up, facing thinking opponents in a range across the force continuum is different from a match, a video or drill.

Would you think it is sufficient for the fireman or woman not to have the simulation experience given what we know about training disaster/crisis/stress responses now?

Simulation under stress is crucial to modern training regimes - folks relearn that lesson all the time.

 

[DCJS Instructor]

My $0.02

For years I have trained using exercises taught at schools like Gun site and Thunder ranch as well as others taken from videos and reading. I recently began adding some things that allow me to move very quickly while still getting good hits on target. However I have never had any formal training.

My question is to those who have attended a formal shooting school. If you obtained all the information taught (much from folks who actually attended) would the course still be worth the money? Why?

I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.

Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?

Threegun,

I get 5-10 calls a day from potential students asking about what kind of Handgun training the person should take.

I simply ask what do they want to get out of the class? Do they want to become more accurate with target shooting? Do they want to learn how to clear rooms (CQB)? Do they want to learn how to FIGHT with a Handgun?

Please not that I clearly define the learning objectives of every course I teach at the beginning of the class and then review them at the end to make sure my students have met the objective.

Any Instructor who is worth a darn should be willing to discuss with you what you expect from the training you want to take and guide you to the proper course to fit your particular need.

Having said that I will tell you that I get More students for my Advanced Handgun Courses than I do for the Basic Handgun Course. I hear all the time I have been shooting for years. The fact is 60% are not up to par to take an Advanced class. I hear all the time you just want me to take the Basic course so you can make more money........So I do a basic Range Skills test at the beginning of the course and if they can not pass they do not train in that class. It is not fair to the folks who are up to speed with the skill set.

So as an Instructor I would ask you to clearly define what you want to learn so that YOU can get the most from your training dollar.

I will send students to other schools if I can not help them. Because in this business your reputation as an instructor is all you have.

I had a discussion with a good friend and fellow BW instructor Scotty N. the other day and this is what he said: 5 different instructors will teach the same class with the same power point the same range drills and the same course objectives and if the same person took the same class from all 5 instructors each class would be different………….

Make sure you VET the credential of the instructor who is teaching the course……Just because someone can shoot very well, that will not make them an instructor. Just because someone was a cop or in the military this alone will not make them a good instructor.

Anyone can call the line…….It takes an Instructor to fix what is broken.

Just my $0.02

 

[threegun]

Pax,

Save your money. You wouldn't learn a thing in class. Guys who go in knowing it all never do.

Did I say I know it all? Or did I ask a question of folks who have attended the actual courses? Maybe you will answer this question. If you already knew and practiced using much of the same curriculum as was being taught at say school X is there a benefit enough to warrant the expense? If yes please list what if you would be so kind.

For the record Pax I am a sponge when it comes to learning something new and improved. Your assumption wasn't really cool.

 

[threegun]

DCJS, I you have the same flunk out percentage with competitive shooters or just guys saying they've been shooting for years.

To take your advanced course what does your pre class test involve?

Right now I'm working on shooting on the move. Not the traditional half walk used to maintain a stable shooting platform like I've seen on videos but a full run in any direction. My focus is on advanced self defense shooting and tactics.

 

[Striker071]

I can say I learned to shoot from my dad as a young man... had someone in the military give me some advice ( couldnt really call it instruction). Went in the military and worked with some SOCOM folks and made me a better shooter. Got some more instruction that led me back to basics and made me a consistent shooter. If you go into a course thinking that you know nothing and leave your ego at the door you will win hands down. Are you at the level of a basic handgun course or rifle course .. I would say no. What I think is that we can all learn something from someone. Sometimes you will also meet others at these courses that might have a idea that will work for you and make things work for you better. Take as many courses as you can if you like shooting... each course will be different and each course will provide something for your personal tool box.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.

They are excellent shooters but you are right perhaps they stink compared to professional instructors.

Let's see...they are "excellent" shooters, but you outperform them in every exercises, so that must make you an amazing shooter...and yet they potentially stink (your word) compared to professional instructors.

I will say it again. I think you are setting your standards too low. What you are suggesting as "excellent" sounds mediocre at best.

Case and point, what I considered to be really good shooting for me 5 years ago is not really good shooting for me now. Such evaluative standards are often quite fluid.

 

[pax]

threegun,

My apologies. I did not realize I was assuming. I was reacting to your first post, where you said:

I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.

Others have pointed out that your friends may not be the best yardstick. I'll go one step further and say that your friends probably shoot better than they would shoot if they hadn't had that formal training. If they started with less natural talent than you, or if they have practiced significantly less than you, their trained shooting might still fall behind your natural talent. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't improve past that point, only that they haven't done so yet.

And my assumption that you already know how to shoot also came from this post, where you said:

Say for example I run my LRRF drill. I draw, run, and fire in the direction my partner calls until he changes my direction either left, right, rear, or forward. I can't figure what bad habits could be identified so long as my grip is proper and handling safe.

There's an assumption about your own ability somewhere in there...

And I was reacting to this post, where you said:

Now I can afford to attend but I don't feel that I will learn enough to justify the cost.

And to this comment:

After years of shooting threegun matches I have definitely learned to chew gum and walk at the same time.

Good. (I'm steadily resisting the temptation to open up the ancient and never-to-be-settled discussion about whether competition is really good preparation for self defense. Truly? Competition shooters usually shoot better than non-competition shooters, and often have better gun handling skills. But their mindset tends to go to pot, and they often have ingrained dangerous habits -- not dangerous gun handling habits, for they're usually exceptionally safe gun handlers -- but dangerous physical habits like barely getting halfheartedly behind cover.)

And then you posted:

I can do it all from engaging multiple targets to shooting on the move. From what to do if the gun malfunctions to what to do if the bullets fail to stop. Transitioning from one platform to another willingly and after a failure. From weapon retention to point shooting. I run scenario based drills also. Plus much more that I can't think of now.

So I don't really think I was assuming much when I said you'd go into a class knowing it all. From all the above, it sure sounds as if you are convinced you already know everything you need to know.

So why in the world would you pay good money to have an instructor tell you that you don't?

Whats missing beside the critiquing of any bad habits or time consuming unnecessary movements?

Seriously and I am not being sarcastic here. This is exactly analogous to a cook asking her guests: "Now, what's wrong with the meal, except for the little bit of poison I mixed into the main dish and the pile of dirt-covered rocks I put on your plates alongside it?"

The presence of bad habits = danger = poison.

The presence of time consuming unnecessary movements = stuff you actively do not want = dirt-covered rocks on your dinner plate.

pax

 

[eldogg4life]

Interesting thread...

I am a firm believer that you're never too smart or too dumb to learn somrthing new. Just make sure that you express your needs better to the instructor. He can't give you what you want if you can't express to him/her what you need. Good Luck!!!

 

[threegun]

PAX, I got you. I shoot competitions for fun. I have used my carry gun (although I just bought a smith custom PPC 9mm) or a slightly modified version of it for every competition except one ( I took first place A division in a PPC match with my new smithy). I'm not one of those guys who pours himself into the competitive world. For me its basically to expose myself to shooting under pressure. Most of my shoot/gun handling time is spent focusing on developing the skills and tactics to survive a shootout.

Were on Earth did you guys gather that I think that I will learn nothing from a training course offered by a professional instructor? I'm just trying to determine if I will learn enough to justify the cost since I have been using much of the same on my own for years. Heck the fact that I even posed the original question should be an indicator that I am willing to learn........that alone shoots holes (pardon the pun) in the "he knows it all" claims.

I just don't want to pay a thousand bucks to do what I already do. i was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes. I'm not very good with using words to get a point across but I wasn't trying to sound snobby or know it all ish.

Double Naught,

I will say it again. I think you are setting your standards too low. What you are suggesting as "excellent" sounds mediocre at best.

I really curious as to how you can make a judgment either way. At least I can base my statement on what I have seen.

To all, I apologize if I have ruffled any feathers as it wasn't my intention. I'm just a cheap old pawn broker wanting to squeeze as much as I can from every penny.

 

[Erik]

OK, cutting past everything, much of it a good read, I'll answer off of the 1st post:

"If you obtained all the information taught (much from folks who actually attended) would the course still be worth the money? Why?"

Yes, the course would still be worth the money, because it isn't the material but the instruction of the material that matters.

"Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?"

Yes, end of any serious discussion.

The question as to what level and type of training would be best suit you is almost impossible to answer in the forums though, unfortunately. Planning to walk before running is sound, even for those convinced of that they run well; and maybe they are correct. After all, it is better to cover familiar ground in an environment where you can learn something than to find yourself in an environment where the material and the ability to work within expectations is beyond you. Then there are issues of fit, or lack of it, but that can be even more complicated, as many a person doesn't know or want to admit where they do not belong. In those cases, hope for adequate vetting; when performed correctly it protects both the integrity of the class and the checkbook. Case in point, I recently attended training where someone had to... disenroll. An expensive and time consuming prospect, to be sure.

 

[threegun]

Eric, Thanks for answering without the not so nice comments. Could you give this one a whirl?

i was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes.

Provided the training you attended was of the self defense with firearms type.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Something you don't learn at a match or just a gun handling / nonreaction - nonintelligent class.

1. Do you freeze with a live opponent? I've seen a 'martial' artist expert get knocked on his ass as he couldn't respond effectively or go for his gun when he should of. Seen it a few times.

2. Be in a simulated incident with a gun with a jam built in to the situation. Have to clear under pressure.

3. Come around a corner and face 4 opponents - nice lesson on not checking where you are going.

4. Dealing with intense police presence after a shoot - with real, big, professional and intimidating police dealing with you - when you are being told to breathe as you are turning blue.

I could list a few more that are more oriented towards using your brain, facing stress, etc.

That's what I get out of training for 'gun fight' survival as compared to competition or pure gun handling skills exercises (which I love also).

 

[Erik]

"Eric, Thanks for answering without the not so nice comments. Could you give this one a whirl?"

No problem and I'll take a stab at it.

"I was hoping that you guys would post some of what stood out to you when you actually took a course. Perhaps list some of the activities that really opened your eyes."

You really shouldn't get too hung up on "the activities." There are lots of top tier athletes, and they all have (1) a coach, if not several, and (2) progressive training routines which include building from and re-examining their fundementals as necessary. And most of those activities are useless without someone assisting in providing artificial stress to some degree. Who said, "training without stress is excercise?" I'm not sure, but I agree.

Take swimming. Pretty simple training, right? But to hear an olympian explain the nuances of finger placement as she dives into the water or the important of one kicking rhythm vs. anothor you wouldn't necessarily find it so.

 

[threegun]

Glenn,

Do you freeze with a live opponent?

I haven't been in a gun fight (thankfully). The time I thought it was going to happen I reacted.....drew and almost fired.

Be in a simulated incident with a gun with a jam built in to the situation. Have to clear under pressure.

Regularly however only while running drills. Also practiced forced transition from pistol to rifle and visa versa. The only pressure was getting mocked by friends though.

Come around a corner and face 4 opponents - nice lesson on not checking where you are going.

So far I have had exquisite situational awareness. Haven't done any surprise attacks though.

I get your drift though. Unfortunately I can't simulate those things on my own. If my buddies attacked me I would start laughing as it just wouldn't seem right. Seems if I knew it was fake it wouldn't be so helpful. If it caused pain it would be very difficult to remain civil. Thats one reason I hate to spar.

Thanks for focusing my mind on what else is offered in the formal courses.

Erik, Thanks.

 

[threegun]

Glenn, If you have more brain training and some time please post them.

 

[kraigwy]

ThreeGun: If you want brain or Mental Training ( which I believe is 90% of shooting) Go to the CMP website and check out their book store. They have several books on shooting and mental training, put out by the Army Marksmanship Unit. The ISU (International Shooting Union) is big on mental training. CMP has several books on this subject and are reasonably priced. like about $6.95 on the average.

One thing you dont want to forget is continuing training in the fundamentals. Practice Bullseye Pistol (for pistol) and High Power for rifle. Keep your fundamentals while you play with your combat or defence type training.

Don't scorn at conventional target shooting (bullseye and high power rifle). You go to the range with these guys, they'll eat your lunch at your combat game.

Its like all these sniper rifle shooting fellows and their sub minute groups. The 10-X ring on the high power target is about 2 mins. I've been shooting highpower for 30 years, I've seen few clean 600 or 1000 yard. When the rubber meets the road, its what the actual target tells you, not what you get from a bench with sandbagged rifles.

Same with Bullseye Pistol. Try shootng the NRA Slow fire 50 yard target. Its a bit smaller then your combat style targets fired at 7-15 yards.

In my younger days as a police officer. We use to go out for coffee after shift. I picked the best pistol shooter on our shift and challenged him to shoot to see who pays coffee. I bought a hell of a lot of coffee, but in the end he was buying the coffee.

To keep myself humbe, I shoot the NRA 50 yard SF target with my little 642 pocket pistol. Do I do any good, NOPE, but it sure tighten's my groups at 15 yards with that little revolver.

Learn the mental aspect. Don't ever let up on the fundamentals.

I have problems with a lot of the PRIVATE Shooting Schools, but that warrants another Topic.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The thing about 'brain training' is that almost every source I know from different disciplines and situations is that emergency training needs to be practiced in realistic simulation.

That is part and parcel of also practicing the fundamentals of gun handling as folks have pointed out.

One can read every book and watch every video.

I think we are going nowhere in this discussion.

For a complete package you need:

1. The basic and advanced technical skills
2. A solid knowledge base that can be gained from lectures, classes, books and videos.
3. Testing on the basics and advanced skills. While most folks think that one needs expert opinion beyond self-evaluation, that isn't getting through.
3. Experience and testing in as close to the end game scenario as possible. The end game scenario - what is that? It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.

So that's my take on 'brain training'.

 

[threegun]

It seems that 3G wants to claim that competition is sufficient while that flies in the face of what we know about training.

The late Jim Cirillo did just fine in gunfights with only competition and lowly Police Pistol Combat at that.

Quote from Massad Ayoob as he talked about Cirillo.....

He noted hunters made good stakeout men, not because they were accustomed to shooting for blood so much as because they were accustomed to waiting patiently and keeping their focus as they looked for certain signs. Best of all, he said, were the hunters who were also competition shooters, because when the gunfire started, shooting under pressure was already second nature for them.

Jim Cirillo's first gunfight....again quoting Ayoob on Cirillo...

Jim told me at the beginning of the fight he was so scared his tongue was stuck to the roof of his mouth; but when his .38 came up and he saw a sight picture, a strange calm seemed to descend upon him, as if something was telling him he was in his world, on his tuff, now. Automatic pilot took over as his finger rolled the trigger, the way it did in PPC matches, of which he had already won so many

Apparently Jim Cirillo didn't get the memo that competition was not sufficient Glenn.

 

[Erik]

Citing the legendary few who excellend in spite of their poor training as proof that training is not necessary is a straw man argument. Legendary few who often argued and participated the rest of their lives to bring about improvements in training, by the way. Jim Cirillo certainly did.

"Apparently Jim Cirillo didn't get the memo that competition was not sufficient Glenn."

Apparently he did, given what he wrote and taught; i.e. he didn't repackage PPC and competitive materials, that is for certain.

 

[threegun]

You say he excelled despite his poor training.....he on the other hand says he excelled because of his competitive training.

He went on to say that guys who hunted and competed were also well suited for stakeout work and shooting it out.

Sure he sought better training and basically anything that would give him and his comrades an edge. I'm not on a high risk stake out team and I'm always looking for an edge. Problem is I don't make a living teaching this stuff nor do I have department funds to spend on my training. I must select what training will give me the most bang for my buck.

I have noticed however that if you don't have FOF training you are considered not prepared for a gun fight. I disagree with this as did legendary gun fight survivor Cirillo. The weight of his disagreement backed by 17 shootouts. Perhaps FOF will make one better but don't poop on those who have other forms of shooting under pressure.

Besides when you know that the 4 guys attacking you are not going to hurt you....much LOL.........it just isn't the same.