Training question?

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threegun

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For years I have trained using exercises taught at schools like Gun site and Thunder ranch as well as others taken from videos and reading. I recently began adding some things that allow me to move very quickly while still getting good hits on target. However I have never had any formal training.

My question is to those who have attended a formal shooting school. If you obtained all the information taught (much from folks who actually attended) would the course still be worth the money? Why?

I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.

Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?
 
would the course still be worth the money? Why?
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I haven't taken one of these courses, but I feel qualified to answer. I've taken guitar and karate. Both need correct techniques to do properly. An instructor can teach this.

Practicing using bad habits simply makes for bad knowledge/ability. An instructor can catch those bad habits and correct them.
 
Is it necessary to have bad habits eliminated by an instructor? I have had several great shooter identify problems and offer solutions.

What type of bad habits aside from firearm handling and grip are there?

Say for example I run my LRRF drill. I draw, run, and fire in the direction my partner calls until he changes my direction either left, right, rear, or forward. I can't figure what bad habits could be identified so long as my grip is proper and handling safe.

Give me some examples so I may identify them myself please.
 
If you obtained all the information taught (much from folks who actually attended) would the course still be worth the money? Why?
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If you want to progress and attend some advanced classes you usually have to go throught the basic course offered. It also depends what your goals are. If you want to get better at IDPA, maybe look for a class with top people in that sport. If you are interested in self defense then look to people who teach from that context.

Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?
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Yes to both, if you have an open mind. An instructor has experienced eyes, so they can see things some people miss.

What type of bad habits aside from firearm handling and grip are there?
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Lots. LOL, sight allignment, triggercontrol, drawstroke and body mechanics come to mind.
 
Take some formal training. You probably won't see a huge improvement from doing so but its kind of like the 80 / 20 rule. You learn 80% of a skill quickly, the remaining 20% takes virtually a life time. At your level, training will probably help refine your skills rather than teach you a host of new ones.

The biggest reason to take some training. Its a lot of fun!:D
 
Are you interested in pure shooting technique classes or tactical application classes?

Folks offer both. You often can't see your own mistakes or learn new techniques to move up to a new level. The tac classes are really a different beast than the competition classes.

For example, I've seen folks who self-taught one finger typing and are very fast. Then, there are folks who learn touch typing and can beat them in speed.

It's fun. Do both.
 
It's kinda like seeing a doctor. A second opinion never hurts ;).

Seriously, even if you're video taping yourself for a self-critique, a good instructor might catch small things you might miss. You can either use what he says or dismiss it, but either way, there's more potential for improvement with a good instructor.

I've noted too that a fast paced class helps a lot with rapid decision making and walking and chewing gum at the same time :D.
 
The biggest reason to take some training. Its a lot of fun!
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Its expensive too:eek:.

Years ago when I couldn't afford to go I had to do the next best thing which was self teach using as much information as possible from professional sources. I would often team with friends and coworkers. Now I can afford to attend but I don't feel that I will learn enough to justify the cost.

Yes it will be fun and to answer Glenn I'm only interested in gun fight survival.

Now you guys have me wondering if I'm leaving speed on the table by some bad techniques.

Capt Charlie, After years of shooting threegun matches I have definitely learned to chew gum and walk at the same time. These guys set up some really tricky arrays and its easy to get left behind so to speak. I lost what would have been my 1st first place finish some eight years ago because I forgot to shoot a target 3 yrds away.
 
threegun

Take a level 1 tactical carbine class from Clint Smith at thunder ranch. I think you will find there is a world of difference between the "game" and training for the street.

And no I do not think you can get the full effect from some one who took the class once and is now ready to revile all. You will get your moneys worth.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
I think the "learn on your own" approach will work OK as far as the mechanics of handling a gun go. But the good courses in self-defense teach a lot more - legal issues, liability, and other aspects of carrying and using a gun that you can't get on your own. Most people here and on other sites concentrate on the mechanics; in other words they learn a lot about how to shoot, and choose to remain ignorant of when (and when not) to shoot. That way can spell trouble if or when you draw that gun for real.

Of course, those considerations generally don't apply to range firing, especially to bullseye target, so that kind of shooting can be learned on your own.

I might also suggest that the worst way to learn either the mechanics or other aspects of self-defense is to rely on the absurd nonsense put out by most gun rags.

Jim
 
I certainly understand expense. Going to TR or Gunsite is very expensive. One should examine the local environment.

For example, in TX - one can spend $350 for a weekend tac class with quality local trainers or a well known guest.

If one totals up the expense of ammo, etc. for matches and are frugle for half a year - you could save for it. That's my plan. Or I do some extra work.

It's well worth it.
 
I want to try sweatnbullets Fluid Threat Response course. I find the static drills offered by the big schools to be useful but boring. My mindset is geared toward getting proficient at shooting while on the move. I understand the benefits of using cover however many times it isn't readily available and movement may increase survival rates. Shooting while moving should further increase survival rates. Shooting while moving real fast should bump survival even more.

Glenn, In the last formal training you attended can you give a brief summary of the drills you ran? I'm curious to see if things have changed much with respect to curriculum.

Jim, I agree with the legal issue. I already have researched the issue with respect to Florida. Recently things changed slightly further benefiting the law abiding citizens of my state. Now I am not required to retreat from potential trouble before I can use deadly force. I am still obligated to adhere to the same strict justifications.....fear of death or great bodily injury. When I decide this justification has been reached is my own decision and one I must make at the time. I don't want anything to cause hesitation at this point. I want to survive the attack period. I'll deal with court and potential prison latter.

Scattergun bob, I play the gun games for fun and a little time behind the wheel so to speak. Admittedly I don't dedicate nearly as much time to my AR as she deserves, I have and occasionally run drills designed to maximize the platforms effectiveness.

To put something in perspective........I rarely practice for threegun, IDPA, IPSC, PPC, Balloon shoots, Bowling pin matches etc. I shoot many of them simply for fun and some stressful gun time. See I get really twisted in the guts before even a lowly PPC match. Shooting with tons of folks watching you......embarrassed if you miss......especially a reactive target (not in PPC)LOL.....and all with a timer on your butt. Most of my practice is for self defense.
 
I ask because I out perform friends, two of which have attended multiple expensive shooting schools, in every exercises.
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You need to find a set of friends with a higher skill set. No offense, but you may be judging yourself against a poor sample. For example, my grandmother was smarter than most college educated folk, but she only had a second grade education. Does that mean school isn't a good thing?

Could I gain mentally or perhaps gain by an instructor pointing out any quirks?
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Of course.
 
Tactical courses are not so much about drills as situational responses. There's a disconnect here between technical handgun skills and the larger picture of action in dynamic situations.

Besides, as folks pointed out - running drills on your own is good but it's better to be observed by experts. I will demur on listing drills for that reason -plenty of media already exist for that.

In a sense it is like a DVD with sexual activity to observe alone vs. the real thing with other participants. The former only goes so far in one's development - pardon my earthy metaphor. :D
 
threegun, have you given any thought about one-on-one training with one of the instructors you respect? Perhaps this would be the best use of your funds; tailor the training to what you think you need, with the instructor having the leeway to make changes based on what he/she observes while working with you?
The reason I suggest this is I'm at the point where I don't want to take a class with other people taking up the instructor's time. I want that time so the training is concentrated on me and my faults and I'm about ready to invest in that, knowing it will cost more but also knowing I will get more "bang for my buck."
Don
 
One on one training is great for gun handling technique but is not for tactical applications.

We need clarity - is it handling technique or tactical applications. Gun fight survival needs more than handling technique as it is part of a more complex interaction.

Tac classes usually assume some level of handling competency so they can move to the application.

So I'm confused as to end state of the proposed training. Drilling on techniques with paper or steel targets - no matter how complex the scenarios lacks the interactional component of FOF, FATS or other simulation based courses.
 
Well, let's have a little storytime. I grew up shooting a lot. Read everything I could on it. became a fairly good shot with rifle and handgun. Went into the military, got military training in rifle and handgun, etc. Got to train with some SAS guys in what we tend now to call "Israeli Technique Shooting." Became a police officer. Went to Academy, got LE training, etc. Served as a member of the Nat'l Guard shooting team. I was a firearms instructor for both military and LE. Generally outshot everybody I knew that wasn't also on a competition team. Still read just about everything I could get my hands on about shooting. Then I went to my first professional firearms trainer and found out just how little I knew and how much of what I did know was wrong. So yes, I'd suggest thta no matter how well-intentioned, one will not get the quality/caliber of training one gets at a professional firearms school anywhere else. Haaving said that, I also caution that there are a number of 4th and 5th generation trainers out there that you'd be better off buying a videa than going to them. My $.02.
 
You need to find a set of friends with a higher skill set. No offense, but you may be judging yourself against a poor sample
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They are excellent shooters but you are right perhaps they stink compared to professional instructors. Which means I stink LOL.

threegun, have you given any thought about one-on-one training with one of the instructors you respect?
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No but I am trying to work a deal with the range that I (R.O.) at. If I can get them to host a Course........I can get a free entry. I'm gonna go to the next club meeting and ask the club officers.

David,
Then I went to my first professional firearms trainer and found out just how little I knew and how much of what I did know was wrong.
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Can you give a brief listing of what you learned at that first session and what they corrected you on?

Would you have felt the same if you already knew and practiced the curriculum of that first school?

I know we butt heads on a few issues David but please be honest. I only have x amount of play money and it is divided between competitive bass fishing and shooting.

I can do it all from engaging multiple targets to shooting on the move. From what to do if the gun malfunctions to what to do if the bullets fail to stop. Transitioning from one platform to another willingly and after a failure. From weapon retention to point shooting. I run scenario based drills also. Plus much more that I can't think of now. Whats missing beside the critiquing of any bad habits or time consuming unnecessary movements?

Thanks in advance.
 
In reply to david armstrong... Is it really wrong or were your techniques just differant. I was teaching room clearing the other day with my sgt. overwatching. I was on my last group and another sgt. came up and straight up called the tactics crap. Why? Just because it wasnt how he was taught. Now both had to been iraq multiple times, and both have actually used their training. And both are still here. Get my drift? Oh and I know civilian and military training is differant, but the principle of training is the same.

Not bagging on schooling at all. But differant people are taught differant ways, and in the end if a technique works for you then use it. I'm not saying accept a lesser technique or try to polish your already crappy techniques (generally speaking) but don't think your not adequate because you werent taught by the gungods themselves. They did afterall come up with these techniques by doing what?.. putting rounds down range.

-Max.
 
threegun ~

Save your money. You wouldn't learn a thing in class. Guys who go in knowing it all never do.

pax
 
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