One woman I used to shoot with was 5' and in her late 60s and handled her 8# Kreighoff 12 gauge easily enough - because she had the stock altered to fit her perfectly. Handguns are the same way, the gun MUST fit properly or shooting will become painful and the shooter will not want to do it.
Training my friend with a pump shotgun was a failure
- Thread starter Wallabing
- Start date
One woman I used to shoot with was 5' and in her late 60s and handled her 8# Kreighoff 12 gauge easily enough - because she had the stock altered to fit her perfectly. Handguns are the same way, the gun MUST fit properly or shooting will become painful and the shooter will not want to do it.
I've found that size doesn't matter as much as attitude. Particularly determination. However there are physical limitations no amount of will power can get past.
I'd be willing to bet Bamawife could manage a shotgun, though probably not in the "approved" manner.
I base this on personal experience, with my mother. She was 4'10" (and a half! dammit!!)
Wore a size 3.5 ring, and only broke 100lbs during her pregnancies, barely...She couldn't rack the slide on the Ortgies .25acp Dad got for her, she lacked the grip strength, combined with the small area to be gripped. She could rack the slide on a 1911A1, if she cocked the hammer, first. She could shoot Dad's S&W Highway Patrolman .357, but holding it up at arm's length was a struggle.
She was a crack shot with her .22 rifle and Ruger super Bearcat, neighbors nicknamed her "Annie Oakley".
She could manage her father's Ithaca 12ga SxS, too. But not in the usual way. She didn't shoulder the gun, she shot from the hip, and rather well. She joked that Victoria Barkley taught her (The Big Valley). She would explain, her technique was simple, just grip the gun firmly and let it "swing" her arms back during recoil. She couldn't wing shoot that way, and didn't bother, but any ground target within about 40yds was dead meat, including small fast moving ones (running fox).
It can be done. OF course its easier for some than for others. As an 8yr old, I watched her face down, corner and hold a rather pissed 600lb Angus bull with only a pitchfork, for a half hour or so, until Dad got home and both of them could get him back in the pasture.
If you can't physically do something the regular way, AND you are determined enough, there's almost always a usable "work around".
I stand by this statement. Until we know the limitations of party #2 all recommendations are pure garbage based on pure conjecture. Anyone who can not shoulder nor run the slide of a Rem 870 has as physical disability whether it be size, strength, or other. That disability needs to be properly identified so that they can be better provided advice on how they can be self sustaining in regards to self defense.
If you can not properly mount the weapon, you can not use it. Party #2 can't mount the weapon properly. Party #1 doesn't know how to teach turret use nor can party #2 properly rack the slide. Party #2 (WEAPON OWNER) is at a serious disadvantage due to having a weapon that he is afraid of due to recoil. A pistol brace AR is a non starter for someone who lacks the upper body strength to shoulder an 870.
stephen426
New member
The problem with AR pistols is they are really loud with short barrels. I use plug and electronic muffs and I FEEL the concussion of the AR rounds when someone next to me is shooting an AR pistol. I've thought about getting one for a while, but have no practical purpose for one. I have two AR-15's already but most likely won't get an AR pistol. I'm seriously considering an AR type weapon in 9mm like a Sig MPX, but really don't have much need for it either. I really should have bought one before the prices got crazy on them.4V50 Gary said:
Its the Gentleman who bought the shotgun he can't use who must find the answer.
He is the one who must choose to spend the money.He is the one who has an idea of his limitations and he is the one who has to shoot it enough to become confident and competent.
He is also the one who allowed a knucklehead clerk to sell him something he could not use.
Any of us can step in to be the next knucklehead clerk to sell him the idea we think s best.
What the Gentleman does not need is someone selling him answers.
The Gentleman needs someone asking him the right questions. And listening.
What he finds that works best for him will still be a gun,which beats a gun that won't work for him.
And it ay very well be a gun that I would not choose.
Ask the right questions,and let him try a lot of guns.
If he likes shooting a 22 DA revolver, he may like a 327 or 38.
He might not initially like the concept of a 9mm carbine or AR pistol in 300 Blackout,but he might find himself having fun shooting one.
They cost a lot for what you get,but I've not been shooting with anyone who could not manage or enjoy an M-1 carbine. If he shoots it enough to establish reliability and famiiarity,he can be a man not to be fooled with.
A 20 ga Bennelli semi auto with low recoil ammo could be a workable shotgun.
The S+W 380 EZ might be worth looking at.
Only this Gentleman can say "Yes,this works for me"
The OP can help him find it.
That is a good approach for Wives,Moms,and Daughters,too.
He is the one who must choose to spend the money.He is the one who has an idea of his limitations and he is the one who has to shoot it enough to become confident and competent.
He is also the one who allowed a knucklehead clerk to sell him something he could not use.
Any of us can step in to be the next knucklehead clerk to sell him the idea we think s best.
What the Gentleman does not need is someone selling him answers.
The Gentleman needs someone asking him the right questions. And listening.
What he finds that works best for him will still be a gun,which beats a gun that won't work for him.
And it ay very well be a gun that I would not choose.
Ask the right questions,and let him try a lot of guns.
If he likes shooting a 22 DA revolver, he may like a 327 or 38.
He might not initially like the concept of a 9mm carbine or AR pistol in 300 Blackout,but he might find himself having fun shooting one.
They cost a lot for what you get,but I've not been shooting with anyone who could not manage or enjoy an M-1 carbine. If he shoots it enough to establish reliability and famiiarity,he can be a man not to be fooled with.
A 20 ga Bennelli semi auto with low recoil ammo could be a workable shotgun.
The S+W 380 EZ might be worth looking at.
Only this Gentleman can say "Yes,this works for me"
The OP can help him find it.
That is a good approach for Wives,Moms,and Daughters,too.
Atticus Thraxx
New member
Clearly this person has some physical issues that should be worked on first. That he's in his fifties might have been an excuse in the 1950's it sure isn't now. I'm 57 and the ONLY thing I'm willing to ceed on is my eyesight. And I can afford good scopes. Get him medical help and if there's no underlying issues, some pullups, pushups, squats and maybe some yoga for flexibility. He can't defend himself from a determined 8 y/o it sounds like. Fix that first.
Edited to add it's cool you're helping a friend. Don't give up, just get him the right help/
Edited to add it's cool you're helping a friend. Don't give up, just get him the right help/
We don't know what disabilities the person may have or how treatable they are. Based on what we know, he has very limited upper body strength and thus requires something very light and mild recoiling. A Remington 870 weighs approximately 7 pounds so something significantly lighter is in order. A Kel Tec Sub2000, Kel Tec SU 16, M1 Carbine, and Rossi R92 .357 Magnum all weigh 5 lb or less and should have quite mild recoil (assuming the Rossi is loaded with .38 Special ammo). If a shotgun is preferred, the Mossberg HS410 is mild recoiling and weighs only 5.5 lb.
M&P Shield .380 EZ is your answer. Specifically designed to be easy to rack the slide and a fairly beefy frame with a low recoil .380 load.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-380-shield-ez-0
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-380-shield-ez-0
I can understand not enjoying 12 gauge recoil. And I suppose shoulder issues (or whatever) could also result in not being able to fire or shoulder a 12.
But not being able to cycle a pump shotgun? And it's not misunderstanding the slide release? I suspect he wouldn't be able to cycle most any semiautomatic pistol or rifle then, and probably not even most manually operated longarms.
Without understanding his physical issues better, it's difficult to make a suggestion.
But not being able to cycle a pump shotgun? And it's not misunderstanding the slide release? I suspect he wouldn't be able to cycle most any semiautomatic pistol or rifle then, and probably not even most manually operated longarms.
Without understanding his physical issues better, it's difficult to make a suggestion.
Apple a Day
New member
If you can get him to try a .22 MAGNUM rifle or a .410 bore it might be worth it
There are a couple of new generation .22 magnums, very light, low recoil.
Either Mossberg or Remington makes a .410 'firearm' +arm brace might be worth a look
I wish you and your buddy luck. Goodonya for helping him.
There are a couple of new generation .22 magnums, very light, low recoil.
Either Mossberg or Remington makes a .410 'firearm' +arm brace might be worth a look
I wish you and your buddy luck. Goodonya for helping him.
stuckinthe60s
New member
snake charmer 410.
Wallabing,
Not all gun store employees give great advice but some do, as you have found out.
Whatever this gentleman's difficulty is, I see this broken down into several issues.
Upper body strength
Pain / discomfort
Novice
This doesn't sound rude to me, but you could tell him you were trying to think of a gun that better fits him and ask if he's ever had any major upper body injuries, or arthritis, or if there are any particular movements that are hard for him to do.
Shotguns get recommended a lot either because some think that having to "rack it" makes a loud sound that will deter others, or because of the multiple pellets causing a pretty nasty wound. But they are relatively heavy, unwieldy, lower capacity, and may seem less intuitive (point and click) to operate, especially for someone new.
If hand strength is an issue, I'd recommend a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 Shield EZ. It's easier to rack the slide, and supposedly easier to load the magazine compared to many other semi-autos.
If the grip is too small for him, then any full sized 9mm with a 4+ inch barrel will have little recoil, with ammo being cheap enough to practice regularly.
Revolvers are lower capacity, but you don't have to fight any springs to load a magazine. The difficulty here is that one needs to be able to pull a heavier double action trigger with the index finger. I would suggest 38 special in a steel revolver, with at least a 4 inch barrel. The longer the barrel and heavier the revolver the less it kicks. Longer than 6 inch though would be strange (likely a novelty or hunting revolver) and make it rather front heavy. Perhaps the gun store gurus would let him try a double action trigger to see if he can pull it without pain or difficulty. Ruger makes a polymer frame revolver (it may kick a little more) that has a new trigger design for lighter double action pulls. I would avoid snub nose revolvers if he has arthritis or he's novice as the potential sting and difficulty being accurate would discourage him from practicing.
Pain can be trained away, but if someone's a novice, they won't have the motivation to even try. And if someone has had injury or arthritis, shooting should ideally not come at a cost other than the ammo budget.
Not all gun store employees give great advice but some do, as you have found out.
Whatever this gentleman's difficulty is, I see this broken down into several issues.
Upper body strength
Pain / discomfort
Novice
This doesn't sound rude to me, but you could tell him you were trying to think of a gun that better fits him and ask if he's ever had any major upper body injuries, or arthritis, or if there are any particular movements that are hard for him to do.
Shotguns get recommended a lot either because some think that having to "rack it" makes a loud sound that will deter others, or because of the multiple pellets causing a pretty nasty wound. But they are relatively heavy, unwieldy, lower capacity, and may seem less intuitive (point and click) to operate, especially for someone new.
If hand strength is an issue, I'd recommend a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 Shield EZ. It's easier to rack the slide, and supposedly easier to load the magazine compared to many other semi-autos.
If the grip is too small for him, then any full sized 9mm with a 4+ inch barrel will have little recoil, with ammo being cheap enough to practice regularly.
Revolvers are lower capacity, but you don't have to fight any springs to load a magazine. The difficulty here is that one needs to be able to pull a heavier double action trigger with the index finger. I would suggest 38 special in a steel revolver, with at least a 4 inch barrel. The longer the barrel and heavier the revolver the less it kicks. Longer than 6 inch though would be strange (likely a novelty or hunting revolver) and make it rather front heavy. Perhaps the gun store gurus would let him try a double action trigger to see if he can pull it without pain or difficulty. Ruger makes a polymer frame revolver (it may kick a little more) that has a new trigger design for lighter double action pulls. I would avoid snub nose revolvers if he has arthritis or he's novice as the potential sting and difficulty being accurate would discourage him from practicing.
Pain can be trained away, but if someone's a novice, they won't have the motivation to even try. And if someone has had injury or arthritis, shooting should ideally not come at a cost other than the ammo budget.
OK, now we know it is for home defense. All he needs is a good 380. My recommendation is a Bersa Thunder Plus ... 16 rounds with one in the pipe ... ultra safe, low recoil, light, slide easy to run, easy to handle, good sights, very reliable, easy to disassemble and clean and plenty effective for home defense. In his condition he will probably never be an accurate shooter, so high capacity is important. And with a UpLULA loader the magazines are easy to load.
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A man in his 50's who can't pump or shoot a shotgun? Something's not right with him, and I don't mean that in a mean way at all. I simply can't imagine this for an average, healthy 55 year old man.
So, if he is having problems with a pump shotgun, then I think shooting a pistol may be even trickier. Possibly something like a bolt-action .223 rifle would suit him better.
So, if he is having problems with a pump shotgun, then I think shooting a pistol may be even trickier. Possibly something like a bolt-action .223 rifle would suit him better.
We just have an "old timers" trap shoot at my range every thursday, bunch of old retired guys from probably their 50s to 70s out shooting. had a one guy go 50 for 50 the other day. They were all double and single barrel guns, opening and closing those things takes more strength than running a pump gun.
Wallabing:
I wasn't there. It sounds like you may have been stuck downstream of a gunstore clerk who thinks Joe Biden is a tactical firearms expert.
Your friend made an unfortunate purchase.
Perhaps you accompaied him to a place he could shoot his new gun.
I'm saying don't beat yourself up.
If your friend needs to use a SD gun,I doubt his attacker will position himself so your friend can use a supporting bench. Those darn attackers can be unpredictable!
Is it reasonable to expect your friend will join a fitness club and restore upper body strength? I think that is believable only after it happens.
Your friend has limitations. Thats just the reality. Maybe they are somewhat mental.
They are still limitations.
A one timee or occasional range trip will not be sufficient to take a non-shooter to someone prepared for armed self defense.
There isn't a gun you can buy that will make your friend confident and competent with a firearm.
He has to learn shooting.,at least to suit his needs and limitations.
He needs to try friendly,low recoil guns,a variety of them.
A single shot youth 22 bolt rifle is not a SD gun.(Except for the book "Unintended Consequences")
But it can allow your friend to have a little fun and become more comfortable with shooting.
A Ruger 10-22 may not be the ultimate self defense gun,but I'm sure I would stop being aggressive with 10 22 lr hollow points in my upper body.
The old 9 shot Iver or H+R top break revolver might be manageable to try,or a S+W K=22.It does not have to be a potential SD gun.Its just something that might be available to try that will help find a direction. A 22 revolver might lead to a S+W Model 10 or a Charter arms or ? A Ruger 327 LCR,
Rent or try a Shield EZ.
Make shooting fun and friendly.Let him try easy,non-intense guns. Let him find a match that suits him.
I wasn't there. It sounds like you may have been stuck downstream of a gunstore clerk who thinks Joe Biden is a tactical firearms expert.
Your friend made an unfortunate purchase.
Perhaps you accompaied him to a place he could shoot his new gun.
I'm saying don't beat yourself up.
If your friend needs to use a SD gun,I doubt his attacker will position himself so your friend can use a supporting bench. Those darn attackers can be unpredictable!
Is it reasonable to expect your friend will join a fitness club and restore upper body strength? I think that is believable only after it happens.
Your friend has limitations. Thats just the reality. Maybe they are somewhat mental.
They are still limitations.
A one timee or occasional range trip will not be sufficient to take a non-shooter to someone prepared for armed self defense.
There isn't a gun you can buy that will make your friend confident and competent with a firearm.
He has to learn shooting.,at least to suit his needs and limitations.
He needs to try friendly,low recoil guns,a variety of them.
A single shot youth 22 bolt rifle is not a SD gun.(Except for the book "Unintended Consequences")
But it can allow your friend to have a little fun and become more comfortable with shooting.
A Ruger 10-22 may not be the ultimate self defense gun,but I'm sure I would stop being aggressive with 10 22 lr hollow points in my upper body.
The old 9 shot Iver or H+R top break revolver might be manageable to try,or a S+W K=22.It does not have to be a potential SD gun.Its just something that might be available to try that will help find a direction. A 22 revolver might lead to a S+W Model 10 or a Charter arms or ? A Ruger 327 LCR,
Rent or try a Shield EZ.
Make shooting fun and friendly.Let him try easy,non-intense guns. Let him find a match that suits him.
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